The 'Ukraine' means 'borderlands', it is a country that draws most of its nationals from surrounding neighbours.

It's a fact that the Ukraine has considerable Russian support. Once again, a pro Russian president was elected pre the 2014 coup.

There have been demonstrations of Hungarian heritage Ukrainians against conscription for example.....where in our media has that been reported on?

Just as it's right to be concerned for Polish heritage Ukrainians within Russian controlled parts of east and south Ukraine the same should be felt about the far larger numbers of pro Russian Ukrainians in the west of Ukraine. This is a corrupt country that hardly cared much for the rule of law before the war, just how much has it cared during these highly polarised times?

A number of pro Russians were burnt alive in Odessa in 2014 by pro Ukrainian state forces....something else that I rarely find reported on.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

I think a position that recognises that Russia was the aggressor in invasion and is looking to forcibly partition east and south Ukraine is an undenialable and obvious reality.

It also looks highly likely that Russia initially looked towards toppling the Zelensky regime for a favourable Russia one. Personally I suspect this was to facilitate an easy partition of east and south Ukraine but some might think that was to take over all of the Ukraine....it's debatable and unknowable. People can point to commentators who supported both.

The real dividing line comes at what cost people are willing to pay for this war.

This isn't my hill to die on personally so I'm not in support of the west's desire to prolong it. For others it seems that this war was such a moral wrong (yet the Yemen wasn't?) that prolonging the war with unrealistic 'get outs' for Russia is their stance.

If morality and right and wrong is what decides upon western action then we should be personally involved in multiple theaters and wars around the world......some might wish to be the world's policeman but I recognise the folly of that.

I think my position will become the more popular one the more people financials are damaged. Most people aren't political and they are going to get quite angry.

We should have stuck to the Nato agreements and taken all other countries into Nato that wanted it.

Not that we would be in this position at all if people like Farage had been listened to instead of Nato neo cons.

Edited by Stirlingsays (10 May 2022 10.00am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

This war has seen a lot of this, I've seen disgusting video, it's out there.

Our media tend to focus upon the Russian stuff but its both...well the pathologically sick on both sides anyway.....well, I haven't actually seen much Russia stuff but I suspect that's down to Russian orders not to video stuff....the amount is reducing....the penny on the Ukrainian side to not video has also dropped I think.

Personally I don't doubt that Russians are involved in war crimes....these two peoples are essentially the same.

What this war comes down to is whether people think this war is worth its consequences.

Edited by Stirlingsays (10 May 2022 10.19am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

I have somehow managed to maintain a healthy and masculine intuition unlike many. Like the COVID lark I was simply able to notice simple and obvious things like that people were not dropping in the streets around me. I trust my own judgement and don't defer it to others.

Thanks for your concern though.

Well, supporting Leeds certainly has a history of suffering.

I also think W12 is pretty much on the right track.....not sure I'm getting a lot of hate from him.

I think you can be annoyed without it going further than that....if anything neurotic behaviour is more commonly found on the left.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

We should aim to not get involved outside of Europe and getting involved in the last 20 years meant we stoked the hornets nest. I’m reminded of that on many nearby high streets these days as well as the other issues. Inside Europe becomes another matter. Yugoslavia ok. The Middle East we were warned to stay out by Jacques chirac. Should’ve listened to him and not Bish Bush junior.

Probably right on finances. It’s what matters most come General Election time and voting in the financial only conservatives. No good for anyone this goes on for years and years for various reasons in addition to war casualties.

COYP