Topic

This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.

The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

Previous Topic | Next Topic

Page 2257 of 2586 < 2253 2254 2255 2256 2257 2258 2259 2260 2261 >

Topic Locked

Midlands Eagle 08 Oct 19 1.56pm
Originally posted by ASCPFC I would say there are plenty of average enough people on here. I would suggest the average person is fed up with being shouted down and ignored by those who think they know best. I wonder how many of those "average people" are so fed up with the behaviour that you have described that they don't bother much or at all with this thread any more. I still like to discuss anything and everything to do with Brexit, it's just that I don't do it much on this forum any more preferring other forums where a discussion is a discussion and not a lecture Edited by Midlands Eagle (08 Oct 2019 1.56pm)
Alert a moderator to this post

Midlands Eagle

08 Oct 19 1.56pm

Send a Private Message to Midlands Eagle

Originally posted by ASCPFC

I would say there are plenty of average enough people on here. I would suggest the average person is fed up with being shouted down and ignored by those who think they know best.

I wonder how many of those "average people" are so fed up with the behaviour that you have described that they don't bother much or at all with this thread any more.

I still like to discuss anything and everything to do with Brexit, it's just that I don't do it much on this forum any more preferring other forums where a discussion is a discussion and not a lecture

Edited by Midlands Eagle (08 Oct 2019 1.56pm)

Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 1.56pm
Originally posted by W12 That's demonstrably bollox. 480 MPs said they would be voting Remain, including 184 Conservatives 159 MPs said they would be voting Leave, including 139 Conservatives 11 MPs were undeclared, including four Conservatives This same bias clearly extends to all of our institutions as the they are all now dominated by people of similar socially liberal politics because it's drawn from the same group of people who no longer value things like patriotism, British/English cultural identity and fundamental social building blocks like the traditional family, personal responsibly, the rule of law, freedom of speech etc. This includes the civil service, the judiciary, the mainstream/mass media (especially television), the academy and even senior police and security officers. Arguing against this is just not a tenable position any more - it won't stop you though. You just don't understand that this is fundamentally the problem in both Brexit and beyond. Edited by W12 (08 Oct 2019 1.34pm) The positions that the MPs held prior to the vote have no bearing on how they have approached their responsibilities since, or are doing so now. They undertook to honour the result, and voted overwhelmingly to trigger Article 50 as a consequence of that. Their position is simple. They are trying to ensure we don't leave in a way which does us harm. Once secured then there are a variety of opinions as to what is the best way to proceed, which will have to be sorted out by the people at a GE. Your statement about "bias" in our institutions is where the "bollox" exists. If our institutions are full of people who think like that then that's because our society is full of people who think like that. We are now a society which cares about our social responsibilities, alongside the traditional values of honesty, respect for the law, patriotism, freedom of speech etc etc. Such values are not mutually exclusive at all. So it's you who are out of line with society and not the other way around. You might not like to see that your views are full of holes, but that's what happens when you post "bollox". For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 1.56pm

Originally posted by W12

That's demonstrably bollox.

480 MPs said they would be voting Remain, including 184 Conservatives

159 MPs said they would be voting Leave, including 139 Conservatives

11 MPs were undeclared, including four Conservatives

This same bias clearly extends to all of our institutions as the they are all now dominated by people of similar socially liberal politics because it's drawn from the same group of people who no longer value things like patriotism, British/English cultural identity and fundamental social building blocks like the traditional family, personal responsibly, the rule of law, freedom of speech etc. This includes the civil service, the judiciary, the mainstream/mass media (especially television), the academy and even senior police and security officers.

Arguing against this is just not a tenable position any more - it won't stop you though.

You just don't understand that this is fundamentally the problem in both Brexit and beyond.

Edited by W12 (08 Oct 2019 1.34pm)

The positions that the MPs held prior to the vote have no bearing on how they have approached their responsibilities since, or are doing so now.

They undertook to honour the result, and voted overwhelmingly to trigger Article 50 as a consequence of that.

Their position is simple. They are trying to ensure we don't leave in a way which does us harm. Once secured then there are a variety of opinions as to what is the best way to proceed, which will have to be sorted out by the people at a GE.

Your statement about "bias" in our institutions is where the "bollox" exists. If our institutions are full of people who think like that then that's because our society is full of people who think like that. We are now a society which cares about our social responsibilities, alongside the traditional values of honesty, respect for the law, patriotism, freedom of speech etc etc. Such values are not mutually exclusive at all. So it's you who are out of line with society and not the other way around.

You might not like to see that your views are full of holes, but that's what happens when you post "bollox".

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Alert a moderator to this post

Dannyh.V2 Stone lickers 08 Oct 19 1.58pm
Originally posted by Matov In terms of both Dover and Calais, it is the people actually tasked with ensuring the flow of traffic who are telling us that it will be smoother than anybody is anticipating. Ditto with air-traffic. There will be huge amounts of co-operation on an entire raft of issues because it is nobody's interest for there not to be. Please enlighten me as to the economic impacts of No-Deal? Trade continues with a bit more paperwork, of which 99% is done electronically. The UK already imports huge amounts of goods from outside of the EU and does so with absolutely minimal delays. Goods coming from the EU are not immune to customs stops as it is and you try buying heating oil in Northern Ireland and driving it down to Dublin. You will soon find out how 'frictionless' trade works. If you own a smartphone of any description then the odds are that was imported from a non-EU nation under WTO rules. And you can stroll out now and buy one without the slightest hint of a worry. Will there be teething problems? Undoubtedly. But any major snafu's will be down to direct political interference. Now that is fine but the UK can react in faster and more decisive manner than the EU. And it will. But we need a General Election. That is it really. Nothing else will now suffice to sort this out. Bring it on. Not if Boris has got another EU country to Block the extension to Article 50. Meaning we would leave on the 31/10/2019 with No deal. He seems pretty clear about that in all his TV Guff, there must be something to it or professional suicide has been committed, my bet is he will apply for an extension, and one Nation will Vito it.
Alert a moderator to this post

Dannyh.V2

Stone lickers 08 Oct 19 1.58pm

Originally posted by Matov

In terms of both Dover and Calais, it is the people actually tasked with ensuring the flow of traffic who are telling us that it will be smoother than anybody is anticipating. Ditto with air-traffic. There will be huge amounts of co-operation on an entire raft of issues because it is nobody's interest for there not to be.

Please enlighten me as to the economic impacts of No-Deal? Trade continues with a bit more paperwork, of which 99% is done electronically. The UK already imports huge amounts of goods from outside of the EU and does so with absolutely minimal delays. Goods coming from the EU are not immune to customs stops as it is and you try buying heating oil in Northern Ireland and driving it down to Dublin. You will soon find out how 'frictionless' trade works.

If you own a smartphone of any description then the odds are that was imported from a non-EU nation under WTO rules. And you can stroll out now and buy one without the slightest hint of a worry.

Will there be teething problems? Undoubtedly. But any major snafu's will be down to direct political interference. Now that is fine but the UK can react in faster and more decisive manner than the EU. And it will.

But we need a General Election. That is it really. Nothing else will now suffice to sort this out. Bring it on.

Not if Boris has got another EU country to Block the extension to Article 50. Meaning we would leave on the 31/10/2019 with No deal.

He seems pretty clear about that in all his TV Guff, there must be something to it or professional suicide has been committed, my bet is he will apply for an extension, and one Nation will Vito it.

Alert a moderator to this post

W12 08 Oct 19 1.59pm
Originally posted by ASCPFC I would say there are plenty of average enough people on here. I would suggest the average person is fed up with being shouted down and ignored by those who think they know best. Perhaps some of us are not really in touch with the average person? Kind of a hard person to generalise about. I hope there is a reform in British democracy after this. The only thing I can think of is the ending of the current parliament and a move towards Proportional Representation. Whereas you suggest the current state of affairs shows democracy at work, in my view it's a shambles. Remove all EU law, dissolve the union with Scotland, introduce a points based immigration system (capped at say 30,000 max) and watch our economy fly.
Alert a moderator to this post

W12 08 Oct 19 1.59pm

Originally posted by ASCPFC

I would say there are plenty of average enough people on here. I would suggest the average person is fed up with being shouted down and ignored by those who think they know best. Perhaps some of us are not really in touch with the average person? Kind of a hard person to generalise about.
I hope there is a reform in British democracy after this. The only thing I can think of is the ending of the current parliament and a move towards Proportional Representation. Whereas you suggest the current state of affairs shows democracy at work, in my view it's a shambles.

Remove all EU law, dissolve the union with Scotland, introduce a points based immigration system (capped at say 30,000 max) and watch our economy fly.

Alert a moderator to this post

cryrst The garden of England 08 Oct 19 2.00pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Of course not everyone who voted to leave can be labelled as "hard right". Many are just ordinary folk, who normally vote either Tory or Labour who were sold the "grass is greener" package. What I said, and what I mean, is that the perception that I got from the comments here was that many of the posts being made reflected a hard right position, particularly those from a small number of regular contributors. Which isn't so surprising as activists tend to hold strong views. Those "ordinary folk" are probably too busy working, shopping, looking after the kids and watching Coronation St to be posting here. This thread is not a reflection of the views of the average man or woman. And the grass may well be greener. No one can predict accurately the future whether we are in or out. Who's to say in a couple of years a majority realise it was a good move. No more liggers getting a free meal metaphorically. We now are leaving, for some reason the eu dont want a deal so that shows what type of club we are in.
Alert a moderator to this post

cryrst

The garden of England 08 Oct 19 2.00pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Of course not everyone who voted to leave can be labelled as "hard right". Many are just ordinary folk, who normally vote either Tory or Labour who were sold the "grass is greener" package.

What I said, and what I mean, is that the perception that I got from the comments here was that many of the posts being made reflected a hard right position, particularly those from a small number of regular contributors. Which isn't so surprising as activists tend to hold strong views. Those "ordinary folk" are probably too busy working, shopping, looking after the kids and watching Coronation St to be posting here.

This thread is not a reflection of the views of the average man or woman.

And the grass may well be greener.
No one can predict accurately the future whether we are in or out.
Who's to say in a couple of years a majority realise it was a good move.
No more liggers getting a free meal metaphorically.
We now are leaving, for some reason the eu dont want a deal so that shows what type of club we are in.

Alert a moderator to this post

cryrst The garden of England 08 Oct 19 2.04pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 BBC Brussels correspondent Adam Fleming said EU negotiators were "so nonplussed by the proposal they asked if it was a mistake". Also we should all desist from saying 'once brexit is over' as 1st November if we exit it is only the start of brexit. When things actually happen. Forecasts of doubling our debt next year whatever the option taken, from the IFS, that would make the deficit reduction of the last few years redundant. Borrow and spend our way through brexit that is what is in store for us. 'debt levels not seen since the 1960's' Borrow and spend eh. Not unless your mate gets in. Scare stories with only forecasts. And forecasts are generally.... what's the word Wrong.
Alert a moderator to this post

cryrst

The garden of England 08 Oct 19 2.04pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

BBC Brussels correspondent Adam Fleming said EU negotiators were "so nonplussed by the proposal they asked if it was a mistake".

Also we should all desist from saying 'once brexit is over' as 1st November if we exit it is only the start of brexit.

When things actually happen.

Forecasts of doubling our debt next year whatever the option taken, from the IFS, that would make the deficit reduction of the last few years redundant.

Borrow and spend our way through brexit that is what is in store for us.

'debt levels not seen since the 1960's'

Borrow and spend eh.
Not unless your mate gets in.
Scare stories with only forecasts.
And forecasts are generally.... what's the word
Wrong.

Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 2.08pm
Originally posted by ASCPFC I would say there are plenty of average enough people on here. I would suggest the average person is fed up with being shouted down and ignored by those who think they know best. Perhaps some of us are not really in touch with the average person? Kind of a hard person to generalise about. I hope there is a reform in British democracy after this. The only thing I can think of is the ending of the current parliament and a move towards Proportional Representation. Whereas you suggest the current state of affairs shows democracy at work, in my view it's a shambles. Everyone thinks they are average, especially when surrounded by those who think the same way. It takes others to see that they are not. I am happy to agree with you about having a proportional representation system introduced. It would undoubtedly lead to a series of coalition governments which in turn would mean that we would be protected from the extremes on the left, or right. Such a system improves our democracy and I have long preferred it to first past the post. I would also ban the whipping system in Parliamentary votes for anything other than routine business. Anything which has an element of conscience to it ought to be done in a free, secret vote which is never published. MPs can advise their electorate how they voted if the choose to. We don't reveal how we vote. Why should they? For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 2.08pm

Originally posted by ASCPFC

Everyone thinks they are average, especially when surrounded by those who think the same way. It takes others to see that they are not.

I am happy to agree with you about having a proportional representation system introduced. It would undoubtedly lead to a series of coalition governments which in turn would mean that we would be protected from the extremes on the left, or right. Such a system improves our democracy and I have long preferred it to first past the post.

I would also ban the whipping system in Parliamentary votes for anything other than routine business. Anything which has an element of conscience to it ought to be done in a free, secret vote which is never published. MPs can advise their electorate how they voted if the choose to. We don't reveal how we vote. Why should they?

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Alert a moderator to this post

Badger11 Beckenham 08 Oct 19 2.19pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Everyone thinks they are average, especially when surrounded by those who think the same way. It takes others to see that they are not. I am happy to agree with you about having a proportional representation system introduced. It would undoubtedly lead to a series of coalition governments which in turn would mean that we would be protected from the extremes on the left, or right. Such a system improves our democracy and I have long preferred it to first past the post. I would also ban the whipping system in Parliamentary votes for anything other than routine business. Anything which has an element of conscience to it ought to be done in a free, secret vote which is never published. MPs can advise their electorate how they voted if the choose to. We don't reveal how we vote. Why should they? Alternately (see what I did there) the fringe parties hold the balance of power. Lots of people complaining about the influence of the DUP thir odd Christian politics well that is what you get with PR. For all it's fault I think our current system for the lower house is correct. Happy for the House of Lords to be replaced by a Senate based on PR though. Edited by Badger11 (08 Oct 2019 2.20pm) One more point
Alert a moderator to this post

Badger11

Beckenham 08 Oct 19 2.19pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Everyone thinks they are average, especially when surrounded by those who think the same way. It takes others to see that they are not.

Alternately (see what I did there) the fringe parties hold the balance of power. Lots of people complaining about the influence of the DUP thir odd Christian politics well that is what you get with PR.

For all it's fault I think our current system for the lower house is correct. Happy for the House of Lords to be replaced by a Senate based on PR though.

Edited by Badger11 (08 Oct 2019 2.20pm)

One more point

Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 2.22pm
Originally posted by Dannyh.V2 Not if Boris has got another EU country to Block the extension to Article 50. Meaning we would leave on the 31/10/2019 with No deal. He seems pretty clear about that in all his TV Guff, there must be something to it or professional suicide has been committed, my bet is he will apply for an extension, and one Nation will Vito it. If he is still the PM, which is a big if, then I agree he might try, the likely candidate being Hungary. However, just imagine what might happen after that. The pressure put by the other 26 on Hungary would be intense and the consequences of them not falling into line could be severe for them. Should it succeed what would happen? There would be a period of "no deal" but also a vote of no confidence followed by a GE. Could he win that then, with the reality of a "no deal" being felt? If he didn't win the GE then a new government could try to suspend the "no deal" by reapplying and starting the negotiations again. Much more likely in my view that he would try to avoid such a scenario and allow the extension to happen, blaming the EU, Parliament and the Flying Spaghetti Monster for causing the "people" all this trouble. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 2.22pm

Originally posted by Dannyh.V2

Not if Boris has got another EU country to Block the extension to Article 50. Meaning we would leave on the 31/10/2019 with No deal.

He seems pretty clear about that in all his TV Guff, there must be something to it or professional suicide has been committed, my bet is he will apply for an extension, and one Nation will Vito it.

If he is still the PM, which is a big if, then I agree he might try, the likely candidate being Hungary. However, just imagine what might happen after that. The pressure put by the other 26 on Hungary would be intense and the consequences of them not falling into line could be severe for them.

Should it succeed what would happen? There would be a period of "no deal" but also a vote of no confidence followed by a GE. Could he win that then, with the reality of a "no deal" being felt? If he didn't win the GE then a new government could try to suspend the "no deal" by reapplying and starting the negotiations again.

Much more likely in my view that he would try to avoid such a scenario and allow the extension to happen, blaming the EU, Parliament and the Flying Spaghetti Monster for causing the "people" all this trouble.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 2.25pm
Originally posted by W12 Remove all EU law, dissolve the union with Scotland, introduce a points based immigration system (capped at say 30,000 max) and watch our NHS collapse. Edited for accuracy. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 2.25pm

Originally posted by W12

Remove all EU law, dissolve the union with Scotland, introduce a points based immigration system (capped at say 30,000 max) and watch our NHS collapse.

Edited for accuracy.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 2.37pm
Originally posted by cryrst And the grass may well be greener. No one can predict accurately the future whether we are in or out. Who's to say in a couple of years a majority realise it was a good move. No more liggers getting a free meal metaphorically. We now are leaving, for some reason the eu dont want a deal so that shows what type of club we are in. You are very fond of dismissing all forecasts as useless, thus claiming that what you think ought to be done should be done. No forecast is ever going to be 100% accurate, except by luck. All they can ever do is show the probabilities and direction of travel. However when almost all of them point one way then it's a safe assumption that we are going to end up somewhere down that path and not in the opposite direction. If you are determining policy then you ought not ignore the strong indicators of what any course of action is likely to result in. The EU DO want a deal. They know as well as almost everyone here, except the wilfully blind, that leaving without one hurts everyone. What the EU cannot do, and have been absolutely clear and consistent about, is to change where their limits are. They have given us a framework to work within. We are failing to respect that. For a long time the mantra from the "no deal" advocates was that it had to be left on the table. That's all the EU are doing. They don't want it but if we insist then that's what we will get. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 08 Oct 19 2.37pm

Originally posted by cryrst

You are very fond of dismissing all forecasts as useless, thus claiming that what you think ought to be done should be done.

No forecast is ever going to be 100% accurate, except by luck. All they can ever do is show the probabilities and direction of travel.

However when almost all of them point one way then it's a safe assumption that we are going to end up somewhere down that path and not in the opposite direction.

If you are determining policy then you ought not ignore the strong indicators of what any course of action is likely to result in.

The EU DO want a deal. They know as well as almost everyone here, except the wilfully blind, that leaving without one hurts everyone.

What the EU cannot do, and have been absolutely clear and consistent about, is to change where their limits are. They have given us a framework to work within. We are failing to respect that.

For a long time the mantra from the "no deal" advocates was that it had to be left on the table. That's all the EU are doing. They don't want it but if we insist then that's what we will get.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Alert a moderator to this post

Hrolf The Ganger 08 Oct 19 2.47pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Edited for accuracy. Yeah, our immigration policy is going great. More people getting stabbed in a day than in a year in my youth. And let's not get started on the epidemic of organised crime. But hey, the NHS. Let's stick to the globalist line.
Alert a moderator to this post