My hunch is that the remainer crowd are much more financially secure and less vulnerable to the short-term pain. In a way it's actually quite delicious. No-one will ever want to vote for anything like this ever again. At least not in our lifetimes. Then the system can go back to normal.

But this goes beyond financial concerns. This is what both sides failed to truly grasp (Remainers far more guilty as evidenced by the Project Fear fiasco but the Leave side also).

The entire issue is about identity. And that is absolutely core to how we define ourselves, far more than money.

What I struggle with is people on the R2 side still trying to talk up the financial side. The Project Fear narrative has been fatally undermined by what happened SINCE June 2016.

Maybe we do face financial armageddon come a Granite Brexit but nobody believes it. A classic case of the boy who cried Wolf.

I suggest that you come and visit my local with me and then you will see just how wrong you are. I know perfectly well where, with whom and when to share my opinions and always wait for someone to give their's before responding. Very few evenings there do I ever touch on politics, except with a mate of mine who holds similar views and needs to offload his frustrations over the current situation. It's the same at my bowls club where no-one at all knows my political views.

Perhaps you don't notice but almost every comment I make is in response to some claim or other. It's only because this seemed like a club for the hard right that I joined in to start with because I believe such views need to be countered if there is an opportunity to do so. As this isn't a private group that opportunity exists. So I took it.

But this goes beyond financial concerns. This is what both sides failed to truly grasp (Remainers far more guilty as evidenced by the Project Fear fiasco but the Leave side also).

The entire issue is about identity. And that is absolutely core to how we define ourselves, far more than money.

Of course identity matters but far more than money? I am not sure too many would agree with that sentiment. So what are the identities that people believe in in 2019? That there are many answers to that in the UK today must be obvious. My children and grandchildren, along with many others of the younger generations, see themselves as European citizens of the world, with a British passport who happen to live in England. I see myself as an British European, living in England but with a concern for the rest of the world. No doubt others, perhaps including you, see yourself as English, living in the UK. So who is right? Of course we all are but the truth is that the younger ones are our future and their views ought to be the ones to guide where we point ourselves.

What I struggle with is people on the R2 side still trying to talk up the financial side. The Project Fear narrative has been fatally undermined by what happened SINCE June 2016.

No it hasn't. We are still in the EU. There remains significant doubt about how and when we will leave. Our economy has been resilient but look under the surface and there are many reasons, based on rational and reasoned forecasts, to be genuinely fearful of leaving in a disorderly way. Reasons that are coming into plain sight the closer that possibility gets to becoming true.

Maybe we do face financial armageddon come a Granite Brexit but nobody believes it. A classic case of the boy who cried Wolf.

No-body has suggested it would be "armageddon". Only that it would be significant, damaging and long lasting. As it can be avoided, it should be avoided. People who self harm are regarded as in need of some psychiatric help. Draw your own conclusions.

There isn't a "remain establishment"! There is Parliament. There is common sense. There is the law. There are people who have accepted we have triggered Article 50 but are not prepared for us to leave without first putting sensible transition arrangements in place.

Some voted to remain. Others voted to leave. A few will come from what we traditionally call the "establishment". Most are just the rest of us.

On the other side are a group of people determined to get their own way at whatever the cost to the country because they believe they are right, even if Parliament disagrees.

There is a principle at stake here which is much bigger than Brexit itself and Parliament MUST exert itself to prove that, or our democracy could die.

You're struggling to see because you don't want to. The complexity and timeframe of this process is longer than a few months. Again, if you can't understand that, you are either being wilfully ignorant for the sake of belief, or you simply are just ignorant.

You cover three areas, take claims that everything is ready at face value (this is government institutions we are talking about) as though that's it. The only things that could possibly go wrong. I literally can't wait.

We can react quicker and faster, in terms of negotiations and trade talks. Sounds good, until you realise how long trade talks usually take to conclude. Another well spun line.

I agree, we will present the EU with a massive headache. But so what? I don't care about the effect on the EU – that's the common mistake your side make, over and over again. It's like kids in a playground. I hurt you more so there. Meaningless drivel. Why do you care so much about the effect on the EU? Almost sounds like you'd prefer a deal.

Edited by SW19 CPFC (08 Oct 2019 1.26pm)