Correct. It's a very partisan take that puts pandemic and Russian aggression at the door of whoever the US president is. In this global situation, the US economy would've tanked whoever the President was. I was far from interested in lockdown after lockdown here, but in the States is was a mixed picture in part decided be States. Even Sweden who were seen as being 'textbook' in how to avoid such measures have their highest inflation in 30 years (6.1% in March). It was a global issue, and no matter the approach, it would've been varying yet impacted degrees of the same outcome.

Edited by BlueJay (02 May 2022 5.41pm)

I completely disagree.

The Ukraine is not a Nato country.....when you say that Nato aren't involved I regard that as disingenerous...I don't think anyone takes that seriously as Nato officials have directly involved themselves.

My position on the Ukraine is the same as Orban's....this is a far from perfect situation. I recognise that Russia are the aggressor and have invaded and that a response was required....In my view both a humanitarian response was required and a sensible level of sanctions. I support both Nato countries being reinforced militarily in response. However, I don't support plowing thousands of weapons into the Ukraine (which I worry will result in major terrorist attacks against us). We are effectively fighting a proxy war against Russia with Ukrainian lives (many of whom are conscripts...there was a demonstration against conscription recently).

We are effectively risking a WW3 and a response that puts the world into recession...People in the UK are already suffering and it's going to get worse.....Feeding the vulnerable in Africa and other areas is now serious. That is the consequence of fighting a war we don't need to fight. These are choices that our leaders have taken in response to Putin's invasion. Outside of Europe and the anglosphere the world's attitudes are a different picture.

The argument that because Russia/Putin are morally wrong it justifies the extent of these economic and military actions is completely counter signalled by the obvious fact that nothing has been done against Saudi for their war with Yemen.

We continue to buy oil from them and their nationals own rich pickings in London and elsewhere. No outrage was expressed on these boards because the mainstream media didn't push the buttons of the selectively over emotional....because our regimes were simply not interested....however the same moral realities applied there as they do in Ukraine.

This is hypocrisy in its purist form.....push button NPC responses from virtual signallers.

Governments are meant to raise the living standards of their people not justify the destruction of them.

If Trump had remained in the WH it's unlikely that Putin would have invaded....firstly as Trump is able to talk with him and agreement could have been possible and secondly because the very fact that Trump is aggressive means that a Putin calculation on US weakness wouldn't have happened.......I contend that we would not be in this position if Trump had won.

The US would also have continued to be energy independent and while it's true that Trump was no saviour of the US economy he would certainly have continued its growth.....Biden and the Democrats have done the opposite of that, cancelling the pipeline, keeping the US lockdowned (the opposite of what Trump wanted) and spending massively......inflation went up massively once they took over....something they incredibly called 'transitory'.

And thus when I stated that Biden was a liar during the election period you were quite happy refuting that and calling him a good guy or words to that effect.

Before as you have stated, if you regard a lie as being for...what you regard as the greater good...which is a justification behind just about every crappy thing ever.....then you are happy to partake in lies.

You like to talk about credibility and integrity, however in my view that's the very opposite of it.

I know you don't seem to take in what I actually think in preference for your fantasy narratives but in truth I regard both Democrats and Republicans poorly. I just regard the Democrats as sick and degenerate on social policy, who weaponsise minority identitarianism and are even more crazy on economics than the republicans.

Both parties are mostly bought and sold careerists, in my view. More interested in their own careers and the interests of their donors than advancing the living standards of the bulk of the US.

Biden was deeply involved in the Ukraine, as was his son, as vice president. I look forward to this being investigated once the GOP have both houses.

However, I don't limit that to just Biden. In fact any corruption needs rooting out, Republican or Democrat. If I had actually believed the misinformation about Trump that you spread then I'd have been for rooting that out as well.

Edited by Stirlingsays (02 May 2022 7.12pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Utter Putinista drivel.

Already done. Keep up Putinista.

Ok tart.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

I am not going to respond to every claim in your long post. Others have already poured enough scorn on your position to demonstrate how facile it is, and how it just wishes to ignore fundamental truths.

I will though on a couple. Nato officials have not been involved in Ukraine. They have issued a statement condemning the invasion and calling for unconditional diplomacy to sort out any disputes. Everything else has been done by the member countries.

Your admiration of Orban I find particularly nauseating. Orban's closeness to Putin, and Hungary's reliance on Russian energy supplies, make him an unreliable ally in the first place. On top of that, though, is that he is not a democrat. He is an authoritarian, a dictator in all but name. He throws journalists who oppose him, and opposition politicians, in jail. He shares more traits with Putin than he does with the other leaders of the EU. Orban's approach to the Ukrainian war has nothing to do with what is best for Ukraine. It only has to do with what is safest for him, and remaining in power in Hungary.

When I was 15, back in 1959, I worked for a few weeks in a Croydon factory during the summer holidays, to earn enough money for a school trip. During that time my immediate supervisor was a 20 something Hungarian refugee, who had fought against the Russians during their Revolution, and had escaped before it ended to save his own life. He told me some of the horrors they went through. Of all the European people, Hungarians ought to be the ones most personally aware of what Ukrainians are now going through. I find it shameful their PM seems to forget it.

The situation in Yemen is awful, but it is a different scenario, which demands a different response. It might not be fair, but that's "realpolitiks". I am perfectly sure you understand that.

That you think we would better serve our interests by not providing Ukraine with the means to resist Putin is, in my, and it seems many others here, opinion, completely wrong. Not doing so would likely produce a worse outcome than doing something now. Procrastination is not just the thief of time in these circumstances. It is the mother of disaster. Slowing the growth of living standards in the short term, whilst ensuring it for the long, might be a tough decision politically, but it's a wise one.

Whilst no-one can be certain what would have happened had Trump remained in the WH my own view is totally the opposite of yours. Putin had Trump on a piece of string and would likely have already wiped out Ukraine as a nation, started the re-education programme and created thousands of resistance fighters. Who would Putin have invaded next? Moldova? Finland? Would Trump have abandoned Nato and allowed Putin free access to Poland?

Such speculation is pointless. Any President who tries to overturn a democratic vote has to go and never come back. That overrides any other considerations.

Your bias against the Democrats is extraordinary. There's good, and bad, in both US parties. It works best when they work together, but those days seem long gone. The divisions are now tribal (which you reflect), and no common ground seems to appear. It needs to end and the only way to do that is via a leader who can lead reform with charisma and solid argument. I fear I am unlikely to witness that.

White lies are used to advance good in many circumstances. You will have used them yourself with your own children. The problem is knowing when they are white, and for that trust needs to exist.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.