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Hrolf The Ganger 05 Jul 17 8.35pm | |
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Originally posted by Mr_Gristle
This is becoming a much more interesting thread :-) Hrolf, I tend to agree that if WW2 had remained a one-front war then the UK would have eventually had to negotiate some sort of armistice. Eventually being the operative word. I also think that the Soviets were starting defeat fully in the face in the early autumn of 1941 before the weather bailed them out. The outcome in Europe was decided at Kursk in 1943. From that point, the only "winner" in Europe was going to be the Soviets and the only thing to argue about was "how long". If it wasn't for the Manhattan Project, I reckon you would have seen T-34s rolling through Paris and another evacuation across the Channel.
Possible. Of course it could have gone the other way if Churchill had his way.
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Southampton_Eagle At the after party 05 Jul 17 8.52pm | |
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Originally posted by Mr_Gristle
We're trying to decide if she's better / worse / equivalent to Chamberlain, Stalin or Hitler. We haven't got to Mussolini or Hirohito yet. Thanks for the synopsis mate. I vote for Pol Pot. Floating voter me.
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pefwin Where you have to have an English ... 05 Jul 17 9.41pm | |
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Originally posted by wordup
Sixtus Dominic Boniface Christopher Rees-Mogg for PM Wasn't Sixtus a character in Carry on Cleo?
"Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support." |
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steeleye20 Croydon 05 Jul 17 9.55pm | |
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Originally posted by Mr_Gristle
This is becoming a much more interesting thread :-) Hrolf, I tend to agree that if WW2 had remained a one-front war then the UK would have eventually had to negotiate some sort of armistice. Eventually being the operative word. I also think that the Soviets were starting defeat fully in the face in the early autumn of 1941 before the weather bailed them out. The outcome in Europe was decided at Kursk in 1943. From that point, the only "winner" in Europe was going to be the Soviets and the only thing to argue about was "how long". If it wasn't for the Manhattan Project, I reckon you would have seen T-34s rolling through Paris and another evacuation across the Channel.
I think you may be right there and Churchill was worried enough to ask his generals for a plan for war against Russia on July 1st 1945, this would meant the German army on our side. The letter was discovered by Michael Portillo at the national archive but there the trail ends. Probably they were all sh****d out by then.
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leifandersonshair Newport 05 Jul 17 9.57pm | |
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Originally posted by Mr_Gristle
This is becoming a much more interesting thread :-) Hrolf, I tend to agree that if WW2 had remained a one-front war then the UK would have eventually had to negotiate some sort of armistice. Eventually being the operative word. I also think that the Soviets were starting defeat fully in the face in the early autumn of 1941 before the weather bailed them out. The outcome in Europe was decided at Kursk in 1943. From that point, the only "winner" in Europe was going to be the Soviets and the only thing to argue about was "how long". If it wasn't for the Manhattan Project, I reckon you would have seen T-34s rolling through Paris and another evacuation across the Channel.
Spot on. The weather delay let the Soviet industrial machinery ramp up its production of war materiel, churning out literally thousands of tanks and planes, as well as removing entire factories and populations away from the western USSR and to safety in the east. As regards your last point- probably right. This was part of the thinking behind 'Operation Unthinkable', a US-UK pre-emptive strike against the Soviets, that would almost certainly have been doomed to failure against the Soviet forces (Allied forces would have been heavily outnumbered both in tanks and men in the West).
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Mr_Gristle In the land of Whelk Eaters 05 Jul 17 11.51pm | |
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Originally posted by leifandersonshair
Spot on. The weather delay let the Soviet industrial machinery ramp up its production of war materiel, churning out literally thousands of tanks and planes, as well as removing entire factories and populations away from the western USSR and to safety in the east. "Tankengrad" in the Urals comes to mind. They still needed two more monumental Hitler strategic howlers in 1942 to stay in the game. (Having the oilfields within his grasp but becoming fixated on Stalin(Volgo)grad and not going full-bore at either Murmansk with Finnish support or Leningrad without them.) A bitter draw was still on the table after Stalingrad, IMO. After Zitadelle.....no chance.
Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune) |
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leifandersonshair Newport 06 Jul 17 12.52pm | |
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Originally posted by Mr_Gristle
"Tankengrad" in the Urals comes to mind. They still needed two more monumental Hitler strategic howlers in 1942 to stay in the game. (Having the oilfields within his grasp but becoming fixated on Stalin(Volgo)grad and not going full-bore at either Murmansk with Finnish support or Leningrad without them.) A bitter draw was still on the table after Stalingrad, IMO. After Zitadelle.....no chance. Agreed. Stalingrad was a disaster, and the failure to eliminate the Soviet pockets on the Don meant the Russians had ready made bridgeheads to hit the flanks of the Axis forces. That, plus the refusal to allow the 6th army to try and break out, was probably the most serious error in the south on the Eastern front. The defence of Leningrad showed how difficult it would be to break a static Soviet defence- the Axis forces were sucked into overcommitting at Stalingrad and never really recovered on the Eastern front. The failure to go full tilt for Moscow is more debatable- there for the taking before German forces were diverted, and the delay meant additional armies were raised to defend the capital. Perhaps a fear of repeating Napoleon's mistake and ending with a burned out city, failing to have the desired effect on enemy morale?
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jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Jul 17 2.28pm | |
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Originally posted by Mr_Gristle
"Tankengrad" in the Urals comes to mind. They still needed two more monumental Hitler strategic howlers in 1942 to stay in the game. (Having the oilfields within his grasp but becoming fixated on Stalin(Volgo)grad and not going full-bore at either Murmansk with Finnish support or Leningrad without them.) A bitter draw was still on the table after Stalingrad, IMO. After Zitadelle.....no chance. By 1942 its all over for Germany, its just a question of when and to who. Whilst the Russian winter was definitely a factor, its important to realise just how over stretched the German supply lines were, and how effective pockets of soviet resistance and partisans were at harrying these lines. Plus the German treatment of the Ukrainians and Russians they overran pretty much encouraged partisans and resistance. Zhukov's defence of Moscow is inspired in its use of both military and civil defence planning. But even if the winter had been mild (by Russian standards) the German advance had ground to halt due to supply problems (food, ammunition, spare parts for transports). Notably the later Autumn on the Eastern Front saw huge rain falls, which the German forces struggled greatly with (being a mechanised assault combined arms - they relied on rapid mobility). But it wasn't just the Winter. The German Army advanced to far, too fast. The faced constant problems securing their supply lines, the mud ground their advance to a halt, and when they hit cities where the soviet army had dug in, they found it difficult to utilise their mechanised infantry effectively. Plus the couldn't maintain the kind of casualties that the Soviets could. Zhukov managed to keep replenishing Soviet Armies at Moscow on an almost miraculous basis. The Germans were never going to beat the Soviets once their Blitzkrieg had broken down, and in the case of the Eastern Front it was too effective, they advanced too quickly, too far to be reequipped.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Jul 17 2.32pm | |
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Originally posted by leifandersonshair
Agreed. Stalingrad was a disaster, and the failure to eliminate the Soviet pockets on the Don meant the Russians had ready made bridgeheads to hit the flanks of the Axis forces. That, plus the refusal to allow the 6th army to try and break out, was probably the most serious error in the south on the Eastern front. The defence of Leningrad showed how difficult it would be to break a static Soviet defence- the Axis forces were sucked into overcommitting at Stalingrad and never really recovered on the Eastern front. The failure to go full tilt for Moscow is more debatable- there for the taking before German forces were diverted, and the delay meant additional armies were raised to defend the capital. Perhaps a fear of repeating Napoleon's mistake and ending with a burned out city, failing to have the desired effect on enemy morale? The quality of quantity as Stalin put it. Stalingrad, Leningrad and Moscow would have been utter disasters for any other country. The soviet casualties were horrific in numbers, but they still managed to find replacements. The countries war effort movement was staggering. The entire population seems to have been marshalled into a single purpose. The Germans would bomb bridges and roads, and the next day, the soviets would have repaired and replaced them.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Jul 17 2.35pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Possible. Of course it could have gone the other way if Churchill had his way. I don't think anyone was keen of a third world war, especially straight off the back of the second world war. Especially with the proposition being the soviet war machine, which had destroyed the German war machine (as well as being well supplied with US transport, aircraft, tanks etc).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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steeleye20 Croydon 06 Jul 17 3.35pm | |
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History is under revision constantly but IMO it can only be changed by facts. For example my generation knew nothing about enigma and it wasn't until the late 70's that all the stuff about Bletchley Park and Turing came out but these were facts so our view of WW2 was altered. A lot of historians are just pontificating and viewing with hindsight what are they telling us about history that is new not just opinions about this and that.
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Hrolf The Ganger 06 Jul 17 4.44pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I don't think anyone was keen of a third world war, especially straight off the back of the second world war. Especially with the proposition being the soviet war machine, which had destroyed the German war machine (as well as being well supplied with US transport, aircraft, tanks etc). Once the Bomb was invented, conventional warfare was off the table between the big players.
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