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Confederate Flag
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 Superfly  The sun always shines in Catford 17 Jul 15 8.29am |
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Quote johnfirewall at 16 Jul 2015 7.02pm
Quote jimmyc at 16 Jul 2015 4.49pm
Quote johnfirewall at 16 Jul 2015 1.02pm
Ironic that a few on here have effectively given the negative connotations back. How about you just let it be a red and blue flag? How many people outside of the US actually know what it is? Let alone black south Londoners. I read an article on the popularity of the Union Flag in Cuba, where it adorns teenagers clothing for purely aesthetic reasons. I wonder how many people over there are accusing the wearers of supporting the BNP or worse, a capitalist nation? We've enough to take in to consideration when we fly our own flags. When in Barcelona I bought a velcro Catalan independence patch as an alterative to the Union flag which came on a jacket but I'm worried who that might upset now. Tibet is a nice one, but even the Dalai Lama has upset a few people. Please provide a list of liberal approved flags. Edited by johnfirewall (16 Jul 2015 1.03pm) that's a pretty ignorant/naive view. Prem matches are broadcast around the world with every game being shown live in the States. Do you think that people over there would know or understand that you just think the flag is pretty? Clearly not, and at best we would look ignorant and at worst, racist. Hopefully. I am as naive as most on here to what a black American's perception of the flag might be. Ask Obama what he thought of being greeted with them in Oklahoma today. That wasn't a mark of racism. Neither was the HF's use. I'd be defending the use of the St George's flag if England had failed to defeat racism and had let it become a symbol of hate. The Nazis liked an eagle... Fcuk, the HF's amalgamation was pretty bad. Edited by johnfirewall (16 Jul 2015 7.17pm) It was. According to this is was done purely to wind him up. And if you were to ask him, I doubt he was too chuffed really. You keep on mentioning the St George flag which, admittedly, has had some unsavory acts committed under its banner, but it has for one reason or another not carried the stigma with it. I don't know why that is but the St G flag is not predominately associated with abhorrent acts - the Confederate flag is. It's no comparison.
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| johnfirewall 17 Jul 15 9.53am |
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Quote Superfly at 17 Jul 2015 8.29am
Quote johnfirewall at 16 Jul 2015 7.02pm
Quote jimmyc at 16 Jul 2015 4.49pm
Quote johnfirewall at 16 Jul 2015 1.02pm
Ironic that a few on here have effectively given the negative connotations back. How about you just let it be a red and blue flag? How many people outside of the US actually know what it is? Let alone black south Londoners. I read an article on the popularity of the Union Flag in Cuba, where it adorns teenagers clothing for purely aesthetic reasons. I wonder how many people over there are accusing the wearers of supporting the BNP or worse, a capitalist nation? We've enough to take in to consideration when we fly our own flags. When in Barcelona I bought a velcro Catalan independence patch as an alterative to the Union flag which came on a jacket but I'm worried who that might upset now. Tibet is a nice one, but even the Dalai Lama has upset a few people. Please provide a list of liberal approved flags. Edited by johnfirewall (16 Jul 2015 1.03pm) that's a pretty ignorant/naive view. Prem matches are broadcast around the world with every game being shown live in the States. Do you think that people over there would know or understand that you just think the flag is pretty? Clearly not, and at best we would look ignorant and at worst, racist. Hopefully. I am as naive as most on here to what a black American's perception of the flag might be. Ask Obama what he thought of being greeted with them in Oklahoma today. That wasn't a mark of racism. Neither was the HF's use. I'd be defending the use of the St George's flag if England had failed to defeat racism and had let it become a symbol of hate. The Nazis liked an eagle... Fcuk, the HF's amalgamation was pretty bad. Edited by johnfirewall (16 Jul 2015 7.17pm) It was. According to this is was done purely to wind him up. And if you were to ask him, I doubt he was too chuffed really. You keep on mentioning the St George flag which, admittedly, has had some unsavory acts committed under its banner, but it has for one reason or another not carried the stigma with it. I don't know why that is but the St G flag is not predominately associated with abhorrent acts - the Confederate flag is. It's no comparison. If it's so closely linked to racism why were they not arrested? St George's Cross was a potent enough symbol of The Crusades to upset Fenerbahce when Inter wore it. Happy to draw the parallel ad nauseum. I see it as the equivalent of St George's being the official flag of Bermondsey, or Eltham or Rochester with the likes of Emily Thornberry simply trying to subvert them rather than making any progress as a country.
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| Superfly The sun always shines in Catford 17 Jul 15 10.50am |
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Quote johnfirewall at 17 Jul 2015 9.53am
If it's so closely linked to racism why were they not arrested? St George's Cross was a potent enough symbol of The Crusades to upset Fenerbahce when Inter wore it. Happy to draw the parallel ad nauseum. I see it as the equivalent of St George's being the official flag of Bermondsey, or Eltham or Rochester with the likes of Emily Thornberry simply trying to subvert them rather than making any progress as a country.
It's at this point that reasoned debate flies out of the window.
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| Stirlingsays 17 Jul 15 11.47am |
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This is a matter of freedom of expression for me. I understand that many people connect this flag to some of the horrors of man's inhumanity to man. There is some justification for that. However, those people also need to recognise and allow for the fact that this flag and others also hold other historical and cultural connections to people and that people are allowed to feel that association. It isn't for an individual to tell another individual which flags they may or may not wave or like. For me it comes down to intent......The BNP wave the Union Jack.....That for me doesn't mean that when I celebrate the Union Jack that I'm also agreeing with the politics of the BNP. That is simplistic, unthinking nonsense. It comes down to what you are celebrating about the flag.....All anyone needs to do is ask.
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| Stirlingsays 17 Jul 15 11.50am |
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Quote Superfly at 17 Jul 2015 10.50am
Quote johnfirewall at 17 Jul 2015 9.53am
If it's so closely linked to racism why were they not arrested? St George's Cross was a potent enough symbol of The Crusades to upset Fenerbahce when Inter wore it. Happy to draw the parallel ad nauseum. I see it as the equivalent of St George's being the official flag of Bermondsey, or Eltham or Rochester with the likes of Emily Thornberry simply trying to subvert them rather than making any progress as a country.
It's at this point that reasoned debate flies out of the window.
That's called reasoned debate. Deciding beforehand why they are waving it without any discussion.......That's the lack of reasoned debate.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Superfly The sun always shines in Catford 17 Jul 15 11.57am |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Jul 2015 11.50am
Quote Superfly at 17 Jul 2015 10.50am
Quote johnfirewall at 17 Jul 2015 9.53am
If it's so closely linked to racism why were they not arrested? St George's Cross was a potent enough symbol of The Crusades to upset Fenerbahce when Inter wore it. Happy to draw the parallel ad nauseum. I see it as the equivalent of St George's being the official flag of Bermondsey, or Eltham or Rochester with the likes of Emily Thornberry simply trying to subvert them rather than making any progress as a country.
It's at this point that reasoned debate flies out of the window.
That's called reasoned debate. Deciding beforehand why they are waving it without any discussion.......That's the lack of reasoned debate.
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| johnfirewall 17 Jul 15 12.22pm |
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Quote Superfly at 17 Jul 2015 10.50am
Quote johnfirewall at 17 Jul 2015 9.53am
If it's so closely linked to racism why were they not arrested? St George's Cross was a potent enough symbol of The Crusades to upset Fenerbahce when Inter wore it. Happy to draw the parallel ad nauseum. I see it as the equivalent of St George's being the official flag of Bermondsey, or Eltham or Rochester with the likes of Emily Thornberry simply trying to subvert them rather than making any progress as a country.
It's at this point that reasoned debate flies out of the window. They were obviously waved in protest, still leaving 2 possible intentions. There are those unwilling to distinguish nationalism from racism even within England where there have been issues flying our own flag. I'm happy to concede that because the connations exist it therefore becomes racial rather than the sort of wind-up any leader might face in an area with dissident tendancies, but then the flag can never be about anything else which I think has the opposite effect. I'm only still participating in this thread because I have an issue with things being deemed offensive where the vast majority of usage is innocent. Perhaps I need a better gauge of what degree of usage is intentionally offensive. Presumably this would fall somewhere between a swastika 100% (of non-Sanskrit usage) and the St Georges at 10%. Overall HF meant nothing by it, although one poster alluded to appropriation of it for reasons other than the aesthetic.
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nairb75  Baltimore 17 Jul 15 12.39pm |
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Quote johnfirewall at 16 Jul 2015 7.02pm
I am as naive as most on here to what a black American's perception of the flag might be. Ask Obama what he thought of being greeted with them in Oklahoma today. That wasn't a mark of racism. Neither was the HF's use. I'd be defending the use of the St George's flag if England had failed to defeat racism and had let it become a symbol of hate. The Nazis liked an eagle... Fcuk, the HF's amalgamation was pretty bad. Edited by johnfirewall (16 Jul 2015 7.17pm) that's exactly what it was. the state he was in wasn't even a part of the confederacy. they weren't honoring anyone. they are outright racists, thumbing their nose at a black president. they weren't arrested b/c you can also fly a swastika or whatever you want in the US. the debate here is whether it should be state endorsed: that is, can you have it on states' grounds.
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| Superfly The sun always shines in Catford 17 Jul 15 12.42pm |
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Quote johnfirewall at 17 Jul 2015 12.22pm
They were obviously waved in protest, still leaving 2 possible intentions. There are those unwilling to distinguish nationalism from racism even within England where there have been issues flying our own flag. I'm happy to concede that because the connations exist it therefore becomes racial rather than the sort of wind-up any leader might face in an area with dissident tendancies, but then the flag can never be about anything else which I think has the opposite effect. I'm only still participating in this thread because I have an issue with things being deemed offensive where the vast majority of usage is innocent. Perhaps I need a better gauge of what degree of usage is intentionally offensive. Presumably this would fall somewhere between a swastika 100% (of non-Sanskrit usage) and the St Georges at 10%. Overall HF meant nothing by it, although one poster alluded to appropriation of it for reasons other than the aesthetic.
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 Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 17 Jul 15 1.33pm |
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It's a nice flag.
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| Stirlingsays 17 Jul 15 2.25pm |
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Quote Superfly at 17 Jul 2015 11.57am
I just can't see it that way. They were either waving it through ignorance or to antagonise.
That is the precise opposite, because you aren't 'debating' but instead deciding for other people.....Like I say, where's the 'reasoned debate'. Aren't you just objecting to an alternative view? The 'ignorance' aspect is subjective on both sides and as for antagonising.....Well, every flag does that to someone or other.....It doesn't mean a person can't wave it......People should be asked why they are waving it.....What it means to you, doesn't mean it means the same to them. If someone is waving a flag in support of slavery or some other inhumanity then I agree action should be taken. But what I object to is a person stating that a flag only means 'this this and this' and that this is the only way to look at it. That is unreasonable to me. The confederate flag can be flown by people to mean other things than slavery....Independence from the North, Pride in a Southern identity. People should be given the benefit of the doubt before you stereotype them as racists.
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| mcduh 17 Jul 15 2.33pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Jul 2015 2.25pm
That is unreasonable to me. The confederate flag can be flown by people to mean other things than slavery....Independence from the North, Pride in a Southern identity. People should be given the benefit of the doubt before you stereotype them as racists.
No one in America gets to fly this flag anymore. No one with any motivation except trolling gets to fly this flag and be civilly asked what their intentions are. No one in Europe gets to fly this stupid flag anymore unless they are an unapologetic skinhead. And I will paypal any of you a dollar three-eighty if you post a video of yourself using the back of your hand (like a Southern gentleman, calling on the duellist tradition of the Old World) to slap anyone you see displaying one.
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