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steeleye20 Croydon 24 Sep 19 2.46pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays What these judges have done is unprecedented. It just confirms what I already knew about the elites. Parliament is ultimately prorogued by the Monarch, it's her Parliament. If she consented it is by definition constitutional. Leave was a majority working class decision being refused by a majority elite remainer class. Edited by Stirlingsays (24 Sep 2019 2.34pm) Nonsense Johnson provided no evidence and left his counsel with nothing to say but empty threatening waffle. The judges decision was based on the law and the evidence alone and was unanimous by 11 of them. Read the judgement first. 'majority remainer class'. What utter tripe.
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steeleye20

Croydon 24 Sep 19 2.46pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

What these judges have done is unprecedented.

It just confirms what I already knew about the elites.

Parliament is ultimately prorogued by the Monarch, it's her Parliament. If she consented it is by definition constitutional.

Leave was a majority working class decision being refused by a majority elite remainer class.

Edited by Stirlingsays (24 Sep 2019 2.34pm)

Nonsense Johnson provided no evidence and left his counsel with nothing to say but empty threatening waffle.

The judges decision was based on the law and the evidence alone and was unanimous by 11 of them.

Read the judgement first.

'majority remainer class'. What utter tripe.

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Matov 24 Sep 19 2.49pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle It's Parliament's job and not mine. My job, along with your's, is to help choose the Parliament. If you decide not to take part then that's your decision but one I would regret you making. 80% of votes in 2017 were cast for parties promising honour the Brexit vote. I will not vote in a second referendum with Remain on the paper because I will refuse to ever accept it as an outcome. If the referendum of 2016 is not honoured then any further referendums have no further part to play in our political process. So let us have a GE asap but with our politicians forced to commit to honouring what they say they will. And it is not my side holding this up. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

24 Sep 19 2.49pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

It's Parliament's job and not mine. My job, along with your's, is to help choose the Parliament. If you decide not to take part then that's your decision but one I would regret you making.

80% of votes in 2017 were cast for parties promising honour the Brexit vote.

I will not vote in a second referendum with Remain on the paper because I will refuse to ever accept it as an outcome. If the referendum of 2016 is not honoured then any further referendums have no further part to play in our political process.

So let us have a GE asap but with our politicians forced to commit to honouring what they say they will. And it is not my side holding this up.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 24 Sep 19 2.49pm
Originally posted by Matov A GE with parties agreeing to PROMISE to honour what they say they will with regards to Brexit takes a lot of wind out of my sails that is for sure. And makes that moral high ground you Remainers seem to love standing atop have at least a dollop more solidity to it. All I have ever asked for is honesty in this process. We were told, prior to June 23rd 2016, that our decision would be acted upon. No ifs or buts or what ifs or nuance. A simple Leave or Remain question with every voted equally counted. An exercise in pure democracy. And it was done and dusted. A huge turnout, a clear majority for Leave with no serious qualms about how the votes were either cast or counted. Then a GE in which 80% of the votes were cast for Parties promising to honour that result. And here we are now. A cluster-f*** but with a single get out of jail card for free offered. A GE on the table. Would I stop campaigning/sounding off for us to leave the EU? Then no. But at least you have something solid to throw back at my rantings. If there is a Parliment with a majority of MP's elected on the back of manifesto promises to not honour the 2016 result then you actually have an arguement to make for us not leaving or a second referendum. Still leaves a NASTY taste in my mouth and the wider faith in our political system damaged even more than it is but at least you can still make a case that voting matters. But instead, we are not having a GE as things stand. You are effectively celebrating the will of 17.4 million people being ignored. In some cases, Remainers are even cheering on the death of some of those voters. And more than happy to throw all sorts of insults at them because they had the audacity to make the effort to vote and then expect the promises made to them to be honoured. There is one last mechanism with a shred of democratic legitimacy left to resolve this. And as of today, it is not happening. When it does, then I will give you a definite answer. But at the moment, all that matters is that Remainers appear unwilling to accept the result on June 23rd. Reminder alert Not a remainer, want to leave with a deal, cheers You say this... 'Then a GE in which 80% of the votes were cast for Parties promising to honour that result.' Then talk about lack of trust / hatred for power and the establishment and say this... 'A GE with parties agreeing to PROMISE to honour what they say they will with regards to Brexit takes a lot of wind out of my sails that is for sure.' The two are not compatible. Further I'm not even sure they'd honour most of their election promises, this is nothing new. Fine if you'd accept it but personally I'd much rather just leave with a deal rather than have any further faffing about like a GE that ultimately will just be window dressing. Labour won't win. Maybe that's why you're weirdly sanguine about it, considering your principles, as you know the Tories would win? Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.
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SW19 CPFC

Addiscombe West 24 Sep 19 2.49pm

Originally posted by Matov

A GE with parties agreeing to PROMISE to honour what they say they will with regards to Brexit takes a lot of wind out of my sails that is for sure.

And makes that moral high ground you Remainers seem to love standing atop have at least a dollop more solidity to it.

All I have ever asked for is honesty in this process. We were told, prior to June 23rd 2016, that our decision would be acted upon. No ifs or buts or what ifs or nuance. A simple Leave or Remain question with every voted equally counted. An exercise in pure democracy.

And it was done and dusted. A huge turnout, a clear majority for Leave with no serious qualms about how the votes were either cast or counted.

Then a GE in which 80% of the votes were cast for Parties promising to honour that result.

And here we are now. A cluster-f*** but with a single get out of jail card for free offered. A GE on the table.

Would I stop campaigning/sounding off for us to leave the EU? Then no. But at least you have something solid to throw back at my rantings. If there is a Parliment with a majority of MP's elected on the back of manifesto promises to not honour the 2016 result then you actually have an arguement to make for us not leaving or a second referendum. Still leaves a NASTY taste in my mouth and the wider faith in our political system damaged even more than it is but at least you can still make a case that voting matters.

But instead, we are not having a GE as things stand. You are effectively celebrating the will of 17.4 million people being ignored. In some cases, Remainers are even cheering on the death of some of those voters. And more than happy to throw all sorts of insults at them because they had the audacity to make the effort to vote and then expect the promises made to them to be honoured.

There is one last mechanism with a shred of democratic legitimacy left to resolve this. And as of today, it is not happening.

When it does, then I will give you a definite answer. But at the moment, all that matters is that Remainers appear unwilling to accept the result on June 23rd.

*Reminder alert* Not a remainer, want to leave with a deal, cheers

You say this... 'Then a GE in which 80% of the votes were cast for Parties promising to honour that result.'

Then talk about lack of trust / hatred for power and the establishment

and say this... 'A GE with parties agreeing to PROMISE to honour what they say they will with regards to Brexit takes a lot of wind out of my sails that is for sure.'

The two are not compatible. Further I'm not even sure they'd honour most of their election promises, this is nothing new. Fine if you'd accept it but personally I'd much rather just leave with a deal rather than have any further faffing about like a GE that ultimately will just be window dressing. Labour won't win. Maybe that's why you're weirdly sanguine about it, considering your principles, as you know the Tories would win?

Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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Stirlingsays 24 Sep 19 2.53pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 Nonsense Johnson provided no evidence and left his counsel with nothing to say but empty threatening waffle. The judges decision was based on the law and the evidence alone and was unanimous by 11 of them. Read the judgement first. 'majority remainer class'. What utter tripe. Poppycock. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

24 Sep 19 2.53pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

Nonsense Johnson provided no evidence and left his counsel with nothing to say but empty threatening waffle.

The judges decision was based on the law and the evidence alone and was unanimous by 11 of them.

Read the judgement first.

'majority remainer class'. What utter tripe.

Poppycock.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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the silurian The garden of England.(not really) 24 Sep 19 2.53pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Then you would be failing to do what I believe is your constitutional duty. Actually I don't want Brexit cancelled! I want Parliament to decide how we proceed. If that means, in what I regard as a very unlikely scenario, that we now remain then I will accept their decision. If the country votes in a new Parliament which decides to vote to leave without a deal then I will accept that decision. If they decide to negotiate an alternative arrangement which means we leave and the people are consulted directly on whether to accept it, I will accept their decision. It's Parliament's job and not mine. My job, along with your's, is to help choose the Parliament. If you decide not to take part then that's your decision but one I would regret you making. Stuff my constitutional duty, MPs have ignored my vote and that of 17.4 million others because they dont want Brexit to happen. Cameron said 'its your vote, you and you alone, NOT the MPs but you the people....he is a lying cheating b**** as are most if not all MPs, so for that reason I am NEVER voting again....why would you care if I dont vote (I think many many more will not vote either) The GE if it happens could have a very low turnout resulting in Comrade Corbyn becoming PM....enjoy that when it happens..s* will get real!!
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the silurian

The garden of England.(not really) 24 Sep 19 2.53pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Then you would be failing to do what I believe is your constitutional duty.

Actually I don't want Brexit cancelled! I want Parliament to decide how we proceed. If that means, in what I regard as a very unlikely scenario, that we now remain then I will accept their decision. If the country votes in a new Parliament which decides to vote to leave without a deal then I will accept that decision. If they decide to negotiate an alternative arrangement which means we leave and the people are consulted directly on whether to accept it, I will accept their decision.

It's Parliament's job and not mine. My job, along with your's, is to help choose the Parliament. If you decide not to take part then that's your decision but one I would regret you making.

Stuff my constitutional duty, MPs have ignored my vote and that of 17.4 million others because they dont want Brexit to happen. Cameron said 'its your vote, you and you alone, NOT the MPs but you the people....he is a lying cheating b****** as are most if not all MPs, so for that reason I am NEVER voting again....why would you care if I dont vote (I think many many more will not vote either) The GE if it happens could have a very low turnout resulting in Comrade Corbyn becoming PM....enjoy that when it happens..s*** will get real!!

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Matov 24 Sep 19 2.55pm
Originally posted by SW19 CPFC Reminder alert Not a remainer, want to leave with a deal, cheers You say this... 'Then a GE in which 80% of the votes were cast for Parties promising to honour that result.' Then talk about lack of trust / hatred for power and the establishment and say this... 'A GE with parties agreeing to PROMISE to honour what they say they will with regards to Brexit takes a lot of wind out of my sails that is for sure.' The two are not compatible. Further I'm not even sure they'd honour most of their election promises, this is nothing new. Fine if you'd accept it but personally I'd much rather just leave with a deal rather than have any further faffing about like a GE that ultimately will just be window dressing. Labour won't win. Maybe that's why you're weirdly sanguine about it, considering your principles, as you know the Tories would win? But there is no deal. That is the point. Parliament have rejected it three times with nothing out there to suggest any different. The vote in 2016 was not predecated on the requirement for there to be a deal and neither was A50. We should already have left and to not have done so by November 1st makes it even more ludicrous. Parliament will not pass a deal but claims it wants one. Fine. That is unworkable. We need a GE to settle it one way or the other. And surely if the Tories win, on the back of leaving with no-deal, then not only did Leave win in 2016 but it will also have won in 2019. How much more democracy do you want? "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

24 Sep 19 2.55pm

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

*Reminder alert* Not a remainer, want to leave with a deal, cheers

You say this... 'Then a GE in which 80% of the votes were cast for Parties promising to honour that result.'

Then talk about lack of trust / hatred for power and the establishment

and say this... 'A GE with parties agreeing to PROMISE to honour what they say they will with regards to Brexit takes a lot of wind out of my sails that is for sure.'

But there is no deal. That is the point. Parliament have rejected it three times with nothing out there to suggest any different.

The vote in 2016 was not predecated on the requirement for there to be a deal and neither was A50. We should already have left and to not have done so by November 1st makes it even more ludicrous.

Parliament will not pass a deal but claims it wants one. Fine. That is unworkable. We need a GE to settle it one way or the other.

And surely if the Tories win, on the back of leaving with no-deal, then not only did Leave win in 2016 but it will also have won in 2019.

How much more democracy do you want?

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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steeleye20 Croydon 24 Sep 19 3.08pm
'EU parliament Brexit chief goads Boris Johnson over Supreme Court defeat: 'Brexiteers can never say again the EU is undemocratic' Touchez I think.........
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steeleye20

Croydon 24 Sep 19 3.08pm

'EU parliament Brexit chief goads Boris Johnson over Supreme Court defeat: 'Brexiteers can never say again the EU is undemocratic'

Touchez I think.........

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 24 Sep 19 3.09pm
Originally posted by Matov A GE with parties agreeing to PROMISE to honour what they say they will with regards to Brexit takes a lot of wind out of my sails that is for sure. And makes that moral high ground you Remainers seem to love standing atop have at least a dollop more solidity to it. In my view that's exactly where we are likely to end up. The Tories offering a window dressed, theoretical, non negotiated, new version of the May deal, Labour offering a theoretical, non negotiated, softer "customs union" deal, The LibDems, SNP et al offering to remain and Brexit offering a "clean break" no deal exit. Whether anyone would get a clear majority is a very open question but I really doubt it. What a hung Parliament would do is also an open question. With both the "Leave" and "Remain" sides of the argument also split nothing is yet clear. Can anyone "promise" to honour a result when so much is uncertain? If the Tories and Brexit together have a majority, yes, after some haggling. If Labour. LibDems, SNP et al together have one then they would find a compromise which "honours" all their positions. It's doable. When it does, then I will give you a definite answer. But at the moment, all that matters is that Remainers appear unwilling to accept the result on June 23rd. This constant barking about "Remainers" not being willing to accept the result is as nonsensical to me as my statements about the supremacy of Parliament clearly are to you. It isn't true. It's not that people don't accept the result!!!!! It's that the result does not replace or transcend the responsibilities placed upon Parliament. Any referendum ranks below that of Parliamentary decisions. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 24 Sep 19 3.09pm

Originally posted by Matov

A GE with parties agreeing to PROMISE to honour what they say they will with regards to Brexit takes a lot of wind out of my sails that is for sure.

And makes that moral high ground you Remainers seem to love standing atop have at least a dollop more solidity to it.

In my view that's exactly where we are likely to end up. The Tories offering a window dressed, theoretical, non negotiated, new version of the May deal, Labour offering a theoretical, non negotiated, softer "customs union" deal, The LibDems, SNP et al offering to remain and Brexit offering a "clean break" no deal exit. Whether anyone would get a clear majority is a very open question but I really doubt it. What a hung Parliament would do is also an open question. With both the "Leave" and "Remain" sides of the argument also split nothing is yet clear.

Can anyone "promise" to honour a result when so much is uncertain? If the Tories and Brexit together have a majority, yes, after some haggling. If Labour. LibDems, SNP et al together have one then they would find a compromise which "honours" all their positions. It's doable.

When it does, then I will give you a definite answer. But at the moment, all that matters is that Remainers appear unwilling to accept the result on June 23rd.

This constant barking about "Remainers" not being willing to accept the result is as nonsensical to me as my statements about the supremacy of Parliament clearly are to you. It isn't true. It's not that people don't accept the result!!!!! It's that the result does not replace or transcend the responsibilities placed upon Parliament. Any referendum ranks below that of Parliamentary decisions.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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DANGERCLOSE London 24 Sep 19 3.11pm
[Tweet Link]
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DANGERCLOSE

London 24 Sep 19 3.11pm

[Tweet Link]

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 24 Sep 19 3.20pm
Originally posted by Matov 80% of votes in 2017 were cast for parties promising honour the Brexit vote. I will not vote in a second referendum with Remain on the paper because I will refuse to ever accept it as an outcome. If the referendum of 2016 is not honoured then any further referendums have no further part to play in our political process. So let us have a GE asap but with our politicians forced to commit to honouring what they say they will. And it is not my side holding this up. All parties and their MPs have honoured the result! What they haven't yet done is find a satisfactory way to actually exit without causing more damage than they are prepared to accept. You don't promise to honour a commitment and then, after discovering new information, do something that, in your opinion, would cause more harm than good. You wouldn't drive your family to Gatwick tomorrow to catch a Thomas Cook flight just because you promised to do so a month ago. You would try to make alternative arrangements that suited the changed circumstances. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 24 Sep 19 3.20pm

Originally posted by Matov

80% of votes in 2017 were cast for parties promising honour the Brexit vote.

So let us have a GE asap but with our politicians forced to commit to honouring what they say they will. And it is not my side holding this up.

All parties and their MPs have honoured the result! What they haven't yet done is find a satisfactory way to actually exit without causing more damage than they are prepared to accept.

You don't promise to honour a commitment and then, after discovering new information, do something that, in your opinion, would cause more harm than good.

You wouldn't drive your family to Gatwick tomorrow to catch a Thomas Cook flight just because you promised to do so a month ago. You would try to make alternative arrangements that suited the changed circumstances.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Matov 24 Sep 19 3.24pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle This constant barking about "Remainers" not being willing to accept the result is as nonsensical to me as my statements about the supremacy of Parliament clearly are to you. It isn't true. It's not that people don't accept the result!!!!! It's that the result does not replace or transcend the responsibilities placed upon Parliament. Any referendum ranks below that of Parliamentary decisions. Do you think it is good for our democracy in either of the short, medium or long term to have a Parilament, in which 80% of the votes were casts for parties pledging to honour the 2016 result, and on the back of a huge majority agreeing to commence the A50 process, and which has failed to do so? We should be out of the EU. Parliament stopped that from happening. Boris Johnson, for all his many and varied faults, wants to go back to the country for a new mandate. Why is that not happening now? What possible justification is there for Parliament not to put itself back to the people and tell it that is has changed its mind? I think we can both agree a second referendum with Remain on the ballot paper achieves nothing than even more divison and derison. Therefore a GE is the only way forward. If you have so much respect for our Parliamentarians then what is there to fear from another election? The current government has lost its majority, there is no evidence that anybody else could form a working Government so why are we not in the midst of an election campaign now? "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

24 Sep 19 3.24pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Do you think it is good for our democracy in either of the short, medium or long term to have a Parilament, in which 80% of the votes were casts for parties pledging to honour the 2016 result, and on the back of a huge majority agreeing to commence the A50 process, and which has failed to do so? We should be out of the EU. Parliament stopped that from happening.

Boris Johnson, for all his many and varied faults, wants to go back to the country for a new mandate. Why is that not happening now? What possible justification is there for Parliament not to put itself back to the people and tell it that is has changed its mind?

I think we can both agree a second referendum with Remain on the ballot paper achieves nothing than even more divison and derison. Therefore a GE is the only way forward.

If you have so much respect for our Parliamentarians then what is there to fear from another election? The current government has lost its majority, there is no evidence that anybody else could form a working Government so why are we not in the midst of an election campaign now?

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 24 Sep 19 3.25pm
Originally posted by Matov But there is no deal. That is the point. Parliament have rejected it three times with nothing out there to suggest any different. The vote in 2016 was not predecated on the requirement for there to be a deal and neither was A50. We should already have left and to not have done so by November 1st makes it even more ludicrous. Parliament will not pass a deal but claims it wants one. Fine. That is unworkable. We need a GE to settle it one way or the other. And surely if the Tories win, on the back of leaving with no-deal, then not only did Leave win in 2016 but it will also have won in 2019. How much more democracy do you want? That's your opinion as to whether there is or isn't. Let's see on that one, I'm not convinced the only option is no deal, considering the amount of mess that has been created after the last May deal rejection. A lot of MPs have since come out and said they'd have voted for it if they knew this was going to be the path rejecting it sent us down. I still find it bizarre that someone who is so anti-establishment will then place faith in promises from politicians directly related to yet another GE. But then there is nothing normal about this entire debacle. I think the question surely is how much democracy do you want? I'm not the one that has an issue with it as a best worst system. Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.
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SW19 CPFC

Addiscombe West 24 Sep 19 3.25pm

Originally posted by Matov

But there is no deal. That is the point. Parliament have rejected it three times with nothing out there to suggest any different.

The vote in 2016 was not predecated on the requirement for there to be a deal and neither was A50. We should already have left and to not have done so by November 1st makes it even more ludicrous.

Parliament will not pass a deal but claims it wants one. Fine. That is unworkable. We need a GE to settle it one way or the other.

And surely if the Tories win, on the back of leaving with no-deal, then not only did Leave win in 2016 but it will also have won in 2019.

How much more democracy do you want?

That's your opinion as to whether there is or isn't. Let's see on that one, I'm not convinced the only option is no deal, considering the amount of mess that has been created after the last May deal rejection. A lot of MPs have since come out and said they'd have voted for it if they knew this was going to be the path rejecting it sent us down.

I still find it bizarre that someone who is so anti-establishment will then place faith in promises from politicians directly related to yet another GE. But then there is nothing normal about this entire debacle.

I think the question surely is how much democracy do you want? I'm not the one that has an issue with it as a best worst system.

Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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