Why Can't The French Stop Them Coming?

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kuge Peckham 12 Sep 21 10.47pm
Originally posted by ASCPFC It would be false of me to claim to be a Roman expert. One module I looked at in College was the Holy Roman Empire. Quite an unusual entity, that probably has more relevance to European life today. However, I came across some of the Roman research questions whilst reading sources that weren't entirely about Rome. I came across quite a bit about the topic of what happened to the Roman Army? Reading into it for my own amusement (bit of personal knowledge so I could at least know some Roman stuff), I came across a microcosm of the initial border and integration argument. The research seemed to indicate that much if the so-called Roman army was indeed 'Barbarian' at that time. It fell apart and later leaders tended to be Barbarian (although often claiming Roman heritage and taking Roman names). However, no one could really pinpoint an exact end to the Roman army or fully explain it. Much research has been done on the subject. As for primary sources, I edited my friend's PhD and then book on a later Emperor. It's funny as I can't even remember the Emperor's name right now. I have the book on my phone but am not inclined to read it! Obviously, being a PhD he had extensive primary sources and many translations. I had originally read his entire literature review where he had interrogated contemporary sources. You can probably tell, as I say, I am not a Roman scholar but I'm just using my second hand knowledge as it were. I can't really give you exact references without looking. I also don't want to give my friend away - as I think his is the most extensive study of a particular emperor. You could probably find it just from what I've said. I suppose one aspect is that we are likely as much (probably far more likely) Barbarian than Roman, so in this case we're the naughty ones sacking Rome perhaps. I also studied Early Christianity extensively but ended up an Early Modern Scholar. I've written on it all, some barely known, some not that good but the odd interesting piece. As for the trousers and the Burkas, it's not really my point but nuance isn't as easy as one might think in posts. Clearly it's a cultural clash - in the Roman case one that seems to have not worked for Roman traditions ultimately. I doubt any would get funding for the theoretical framework I would be interested in. However, it could perhaps be framed as a diversity and gender study? Definite dollar signs there. Thanks for posting this your insight is useful. Like you the Roman Empire is not really a primary interest of mine but I have read around the subject quite a lot. Early modern Europe is what really fascinated me. In relation to the fall of the Romans, I think the most intriguing aspect is how pernicious processes and situations allowed an empire to desintigrate without it being entirely obvious that it was happening until it was too late. This might give succour to those that want to suggest Britain today is an Empire on the brink of collapse, however, such a comparison is wafer-thin at best. Interesting the idea that climate change played a significant role in the fall of Roma has not been discussed. As climate change is likely to be the cause of a lot of mass migration in the coming decades it is perhaps here that the analogy might be most appropriate.
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kuge

Peckham 12 Sep 21 10.47pm

Originally posted by ASCPFC

It would be false of me to claim to be a Roman expert. One module I looked at in College was the Holy Roman Empire. Quite an unusual entity, that probably has more relevance to European life today. However, I came across some of the Roman research questions whilst reading sources that weren't entirely about Rome. I came across quite a bit about the topic of what happened to the Roman Army?
Reading into it for my own amusement (bit of personal knowledge so I could at least know some Roman stuff), I came across a microcosm of the initial border and integration argument. The research seemed to indicate that much if the so-called Roman army was indeed 'Barbarian' at that time. It fell apart and later leaders tended to be Barbarian (although often claiming Roman heritage and taking Roman names). However, no one could really pinpoint an exact end to the Roman army or fully explain it. Much research has been done on the subject.
As for primary sources, I edited my friend's PhD and then book on a later Emperor. It's funny as I can't even remember the Emperor's name right now. I have the book on my phone but am not inclined to read it! Obviously, being a PhD he had extensive primary sources and many translations. I had originally read his entire literature review where he had interrogated contemporary sources. You can probably tell, as I say, I am not a Roman scholar but I'm just using my second hand knowledge as it were. I can't really give you exact references without looking. I also don't want to give my friend away - as I think his is the most extensive study of a particular emperor. You could probably find it just from what I've said. I suppose one aspect is that we are likely as much (probably far more likely) Barbarian than Roman, so in this case we're the naughty ones sacking Rome perhaps.
I also studied Early Christianity extensively but ended up an Early Modern Scholar. I've written on it all, some barely known, some not that good but the odd interesting piece.
As for the trousers and the Burkas, it's not really my point but nuance isn't as easy as one might think in posts. Clearly it's a cultural clash - in the Roman case one that seems to have not worked for Roman traditions ultimately. I doubt any would get funding for the theoretical framework I would be interested in. However, it could perhaps be framed as a diversity and gender study? Definite dollar signs there.

Thanks for posting this your insight is useful. Like you the Roman Empire is not really a primary interest of mine but I have read around the subject quite a lot. Early modern Europe is what really fascinated me.

In relation to the fall of the Romans, I think the most intriguing aspect is how pernicious processes and situations allowed an empire to desintigrate without it being entirely obvious that it was happening until it was too late. This might give succour to those that want to suggest Britain today is an Empire on the brink of collapse, however, such a comparison is wafer-thin at best.

Interesting the idea that climate change played a significant role in the fall of Roma has not been discussed. As climate change is likely to be the cause of a lot of mass migration in the coming decades it is perhaps here that the analogy might be most appropriate.

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PalazioVecchio south pole 13 Sep 21 12.38am
Originally posted by kuge This might give succour to those that want to suggest Britain today is an Empire on the brink of collapse, however, such a comparison is wafer-thin at best. imagine 2030 , and much of England being like Luton is today. have you visited that town recently ? Edited by PalazioVecchio (13 Sep 2021 12.44am) Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford
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PalazioVecchio

south pole 13 Sep 21 12.38am

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Originally posted by kuge

This might give succour to those that want to suggest Britain today is an Empire on the brink of collapse, however, such a comparison is wafer-thin at best.

imagine 2030 , and much of England being like Luton is today.

have you visited that town recently ?

Edited by PalazioVecchio (13 Sep 2021 12.44am)

Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford

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chris123 hove actually 13 Sep 21 5.59am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Wikipedia is a bastion of leftist editors. I've already read reviews of this book, that I now have to get, that suggest that poor Roman handling of incoming European immigration was a weakening factor. There are obvious parallels with the breakdown of Roman cohesion with the modern day. Your objections appear purely to be in line with your denialism. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Sep 2021 3.20pm) What have the Romans ever done for us?
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chris123

hove actually 13 Sep 21 5.59am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Wikipedia is a bastion of leftist editors.

I've already read reviews of this book, that I now have to get, that suggest that poor Roman handling of incoming European immigration was a weakening factor.

There are obvious parallels with the breakdown of Roman cohesion with the modern day. Your objections appear purely to be in line with your denialism.

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Sep 2021 3.20pm)

What have the Romans ever done for us?

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cryrst The garden of England 13 Sep 21 6.22am
Originally posted by chris123 What have the Romans ever done for us? Are you the judean peoples national front?
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cryrst

The garden of England 13 Sep 21 6.22am

Originally posted by chris123

What have the Romans ever done for us?

Are you the judean peoples national front?

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chris123 hove actually 13 Sep 21 6.28am
Originally posted by cryrst Are you the judean peoples national front? Yes Reg.
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chris123

hove actually 13 Sep 21 6.28am

Originally posted by cryrst

Are you the judean peoples national front?

Yes Reg.

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Stirlingsays 13 Sep 21 8.14am
Originally posted by chris123 What have the Romans ever done for us? Noses. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

13 Sep 21 8.14am

Originally posted by chris123

What have the Romans ever done for us?

Noses.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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kuge Peckham 13 Sep 21 8.23am
Originally posted by PalazioVecchio imagine 2030 , and much of England being like Luton is today. have you visited that town recently ? Edited by PalazioVecchio (13 Sep 2021 12.44am) Yes, it would be terrible if much of England was like Luton. It is the diversity of different towns that give them character. If everywhere was the same it would be detrimental to sense of place etc. Sadly the proliferation of chains on our high streets is doing exactly that. Starbuck’s, MacDonald’s, etc are killing local businesses and local variety. Luton is a town that has been badly let down by generations of politicians, most especially in the area of town planning. Luton does, however, have much of quality about it. I presume that you know Luton well? I once heard Luton described as a northern town marooned in the south and I think that this sums it up rather well. There are few towns in the south of England that have traditionally had such a reliance on industry for jobs. First hat making and then vehicles. The loss of these employers hit the town badly but it has always bounced back. The growth of Luton Airport in the past two decades has of course helped. Although it is a town that attracts some derision it is somewhere that I hold in great affection. (I worked there on and off for about 5 years). Eric Morecambe, who lived locally and held the town in great affection, may well have unwittingly started the mocking by using Luton as the punch line in some of his jokes. The fabric of the town itself has been rather spoilt by WWII bombing, a one-way system that put cars above people and the Mall (formerly the Arndale centre), one of the first such malls built in Britain. In contrast, St Mary’s Church is magnificent certainly one of the best churches in the county. I am particularly enthusiastic about the vestry designed by George Pace an architect deserving of much more attention. The town hall built in the bombastic stripped classism of the interwar years is at once too formal and too louche. Interestingly this was built in the 1930s to replace its predecessor burnt down in 1919 by rioters unhappy with the excessive spending on Peace day celebrations when they lacked housing and jobs. The influx of immigrants from Ireland and later pakistan from the 1920s onwards has been to the benefit of all. Likewise, the establishment of Bedford University (formerly Luton University) has given the town a strong student culture. I was there about a month ago.
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kuge

Peckham 13 Sep 21 8.23am

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

imagine 2030 , and much of England being like Luton is today.

have you visited that town recently ?

Edited by PalazioVecchio (13 Sep 2021 12.44am)

Yes, it would be terrible if much of England was like Luton. It is the diversity of different towns that give them character. If everywhere was the same it would be detrimental to sense of place etc. Sadly the proliferation of chains on our high streets is doing exactly that. Starbuck’s, MacDonald’s, etc are killing local businesses and local variety.

Luton is a town that has been badly let down by generations of politicians, most especially in the area of town planning. Luton does, however, have much of quality about it.

I presume that you know Luton well? I once heard Luton described as a northern town marooned in the south and I think that this sums it up rather well. There are few towns in the south of England that have traditionally had such a reliance on industry for jobs. First hat making and then vehicles. The loss of these employers hit the town badly but it has always bounced back. The growth of Luton Airport in the past two decades has of course helped.

Although it is a town that attracts some derision it is somewhere that I hold in great affection. (I worked there on and off for about 5 years). Eric Morecambe, who lived locally and held the town in great affection, may well have unwittingly started the mocking by using Luton as the punch line in some of his jokes.

The fabric of the town itself has been rather spoilt by WWII bombing, a one-way system that put cars above people and the Mall (formerly the Arndale centre), one of the first such malls built in Britain. In contrast, St Mary’s Church is magnificent certainly one of the best churches in the county. I am particularly enthusiastic about the vestry designed by George Pace an architect deserving of much more attention.

The town hall built in the bombastic stripped classism of the interwar years is at once too formal and too louche. Interestingly this was built in the 1930s to replace its predecessor burnt down in 1919 by rioters unhappy with the excessive spending on Peace day celebrations when they lacked housing and jobs.

The influx of immigrants from Ireland and later pakistan from the 1920s onwards has been to the benefit of all. Likewise, the establishment of Bedford University (formerly Luton University) has given the town a strong student culture.

I was there about a month ago.

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Hrolf The Ganger 13 Sep 21 9.05am
Originally posted by kuge Yes, it would be terrible if much of England was like Luton. It is the diversity of different towns that give them character. If everywhere was the same it would be detrimental to sense of place etc. Sadly the proliferation of chains on our high streets is doing exactly that. Starbuck’s, MacDonald’s, etc are killing local businesses and local variety. Luton is a town that has been badly let down by generations of politicians, most especially in the area of town planning. Luton does, however, have much of quality about it. I presume that you know Luton well? I once heard Luton described as a northern town marooned in the south and I think that this sums it up rather well. There are few towns in the south of England that have traditionally had such a reliance on industry for jobs. First hat making and then vehicles. The loss of these employers hit the town badly but it has always bounced back. The growth of Luton Airport in the past two decades has of course helped. Although it is a town that attracts some derision it is somewhere that I hold in great affection. (I worked there on and off for about 5 years). Eric Morecambe, who lived locally and held the town in great affection, may well have unwittingly started the mocking by using Luton as the punch line in some of his jokes. The fabric of the town itself has been rather spoilt by WWII bombing, a one-way system that put cars above people and the Mall (formerly the Arndale centre), one of the first such malls built in Britain. In contrast, St Mary’s Church is magnificent certainly one of the best churches in the county. I am particularly enthusiastic about the vestry designed by George Pace an architect deserving of much more attention. The town hall built in the bombastic stripped classism of the interwar years is at once too formal and too louche. Interestingly this was built in the 1930s to replace its predecessor burnt down in 1919 by rioters unhappy with the excessive spending on Peace day celebrations when they lacked housing and jobs. The influx of immigrants from Ireland and later pakistan from the 1920s onwards has been to the benefit of all. Likewise, the establishment of Bedford University (formerly Luton University) has given the town a strong student culture. I was there about a month ago. I think we know where you stand now Kuge. You seem determined to crash the party, so I'll indulge you a little. Your thought on Rome are rather predictable. We all see things including history through the lens of our own prejudices and biases. That is accepted. Current trends also influence thinking. Let us take for example your assertion that climate change was a more significant factor and better compared to today than migration in the downfall of Rome. Firstly, you appear to have all but ruled out migrants as a factor altogether. That gives us a big clue as to your mindset. Then you introduce climate change as a significant factor, which any reasonable person knows is a constant throughout human history. You might as well blame the air. They tried to make the same argument about the extinction of ice age mammals, when it is now clear that humans played a big part in their demise. To summarise. Dismissing one factor because it is uncomfortable and replacing it with another which is more in keeping with the current Zeitgeist is the height of short sightedness. It is not logic. Climate change might well have played a part, as it does in virtually everything, but to hold it up while rejecting far more significant factors is really clutching at straws. I think it is fairly clear what your motives are for this stretch of reasoning. There are clearly a set of complex interwoven factors and events that bring about any circumstance, and removing any one of them might cause events to play out differently. It is widely accepted that migrants, namely Visigoths, driven from their homelands into the Roman Empire were a key factor in the final collapse of Rome, just as the use of foreign mercenaries in the Legions lead to large numbers of them actually going across to the enemy when Rome was eventually invaded. You seem to want to dismiss these factors because you are clear yet another one of those people who wish to promote immigration in modern Britain. You want to down play anything from history that draws a negative comparison. This is age old tactics that have been employed many times by various people. Another age old tactic is to accuse your accuser of the same tactics. We have seen it all before. Now, as discussed, there certainly were a range of interwoven reasons why Rome fell, and I drew a comparison to modern Britain. Climate change and all the rest are all valid to one degree or another and applicable to today, I'm sure, but all people have to do is a bit of their own research and draw their own conclusions. They don't need to take my word or yours. If they can read or even watch TV, they can see what they need to see. I stand by my comparison and would ask you to provide evidence to disprove it. All you have done so far is reference one book and tell us all that I'm wrong. Let's see you prove it.
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Hrolf The Ganger

13 Sep 21 9.05am

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Originally posted by kuge

Luton is a town that has been badly let down by generations of politicians, most especially in the area of town planning. Luton does, however, have much of quality about it.

I was there about a month ago.

I think we know where you stand now Kuge.

You seem determined to crash the party, so I'll indulge you a little.

Your thought on Rome are rather predictable. We all see things including history through the lens of our own prejudices and biases. That is accepted.
Current trends also influence thinking.

Let us take for example your assertion that climate change was a more significant factor and better compared to today than migration in the downfall of Rome.

Firstly, you appear to have all but ruled out migrants as a factor altogether. That gives us a big clue as to your mindset.
Then you introduce climate change as a significant factor, which any reasonable person knows is a constant throughout human history. You might as well blame the air. They tried to make the same argument about the extinction of ice age mammals, when it is now clear that humans played a big part in their demise.
To summarise. Dismissing one factor because it is uncomfortable and replacing it with another which is more in keeping with the current Zeitgeist is the height of short sightedness. It is not logic. Climate change might well have played a part, as it does in virtually everything, but to hold it up while rejecting far more significant factors is really clutching at straws. I think it is fairly clear what your motives are for this stretch of reasoning.

There are clearly a set of complex interwoven factors and events that bring about any circumstance, and removing any one of them might cause events to play out differently. It is widely accepted that migrants, namely Visigoths, driven from their homelands into the Roman Empire were a key factor in the final collapse of Rome, just as the use of foreign mercenaries in the Legions lead to large numbers of them actually going across to the enemy when Rome was eventually invaded.

You seem to want to dismiss these factors because you are clear yet another one of those people who wish to promote immigration in modern Britain. You want to down play anything from history that draws a negative comparison. This is age old tactics that have been employed many times by various people. Another age old tactic is to accuse your accuser of the same tactics.

We have seen it all before.

Now, as discussed, there certainly were a range of interwoven reasons why Rome fell, and I drew a comparison to modern Britain. Climate change and all the rest are all valid to one degree or another and applicable to today, I'm sure, but all people have to do is a bit of their own research and draw their own conclusions. They don't need to take my word or yours. If they can read or even watch TV, they can see what they need to see.

I stand by my comparison and would ask you to provide evidence to disprove it. All you have done so far is reference one book and tell us all that I'm wrong.

Let's see you prove it.

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PalazioVecchio south pole 13 Sep 21 10.03am
Luton , the statistics for crime, urban-deprivation & anti social behaviour all speak volumes. And for some reason, sexual offences are very prevalent. Statistics , facts..... not opinions. [Link] . [Link] Edited by PalazioVecchio (13 Sep 2021 10.25am) Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford
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PalazioVecchio

south pole 13 Sep 21 10.03am

Luton , the statistics for crime, urban-deprivation & anti social behaviour all speak volumes.

And for some reason, sexual offences are very prevalent.

Statistics , facts..... not opinions.

[Link]
.
[Link]

Edited by PalazioVecchio (13 Sep 2021 10.25am)

Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford

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cryrst The garden of England 13 Sep 21 10.20am
It does appear that if your opinion on certain things isn't the current hallelujah then your opinion is wrong. Surely that is what opinions are and we aren't in kabul.
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cryrst

The garden of England 13 Sep 21 10.20am

It does appear that if your opinion on certain things isn't the current hallelujah then your opinion is wrong.
Surely that is what opinions are and we aren't in kabul.

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kuge Peckham 13 Sep 21 10.22am
Originally posted by PalazioVecchio Luton [Link] This article is related to a satirical ranking of towns. The authors of the report are attempting to be funny at the expense of Luton, which as I have said has been the but of jokes for many decades. It’s a very easy target. It’s all too easy to run a place down. I don’t pretend that Luton is perfect, indeed it has many problems. These problems, lack of jobs, poor town planning, quality of housing, etc., are all common to many towns in England. They stem from shortsightedness and lack of investment. I would urge you to visit the place, not just the website. I think that it is likely that you will be pleasantly surprised.
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kuge

Peckham 13 Sep 21 10.22am

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

Luton

[Link]

This article is related to a satirical ranking of towns. The authors of the report are attempting to be funny at the expense of Luton, which as I have said has been the but of jokes for many decades. It’s a very easy target.

It’s all too easy to run a place down. I don’t pretend that Luton is perfect, indeed it has many problems. These problems, lack of jobs, poor town planning, quality of housing, etc., are all common to many towns in England. They stem from shortsightedness and lack of investment.

I would urge you to visit the place, not just the website. I think that it is likely that you will be pleasantly surprised.

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Stirlingsays 13 Sep 21 10.31am
Originally posted by cryrst It does appear that if your opinion on certain things isn't the current hallelujah then your opinion is wrong. Surely that is what opinions are and we aren't in kabul. Excellent point. Though apparently we are the ones forcing people not to post because we're so 'extreme'. In other words we might not fully agree on sacred cows. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Sep 2021 10.32am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

13 Sep 21 10.31am

Originally posted by cryrst

It does appear that if your opinion on certain things isn't the current hallelujah then your opinion is wrong.
Surely that is what opinions are and we aren't in kabul.

Excellent point.

Though apparently we are the ones forcing people not to post because we're so 'extreme'.

In other words we might not fully agree on sacred cows.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Sep 2021 10.32am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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