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cryrst The garden of England 09 Sep 19 8.44pm | |
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I would laugh my tits off if boris doesnt offer a GE after all this crap.
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silvertop Portishead 09 Sep 19 8.48pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
The left have a majority in the commons yet they have zero mandate from the people for it. Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Sep 2019 7.38pm) Rather depends on how you define left. To many posters on here that definItion appears to include anyone east of those advocating a picture of Hitler on the side of an ICBM.
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Teddy Eagle 09 Sep 19 8.51pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Not the issue. We all have opinions. The electorate express their's on who they want to represent them at a GE. Once done those they choose express their's in Parliament. That's the mandate the people give them. Most MP's are neither really left, or right. By far the bulk of them are in the middle and just lean a little in one direction. There is much more that the centre right of the Tory Party, the Lib Dems, the SNP and the centre left of the Labour Party have in common with each other than they do with their extreme wings. All are democrats who believe in the supremacy of Parliament. Any Party which drifts too far from the centre will never command a majority on it's own. That's as true of the Tories under Johnson as it is of Labour under Corbyn. Deselecting moderates in the name of purging unwelcome views would be committing political suicide. Edited by Wisbech Eagle (09 Sep 2019 7.54pm) We are truly blessed to live in an era with such titans of political life. God forbid our future were to be left in the hands of non-entities, lightweights and self interested morons,
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Stirlingsays 09 Sep 19 9.40pm | |
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Originally posted by silvertop
Rather depends on how you define left. To many posters on here that definItion appears to include anyone east of those advocating a picture of Hitler on the side of an ICBM. I think we can define the modern day Labour party as left don't you think? And it's them who now hold the majority. Zero mandate....Yet they are passing laws. Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Sep 2019 9.41pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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silvertop Portishead 09 Sep 19 9.47pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I think we can define the modern day Labour party as left don't you think? And it's them who now hold the majority. Zero mandate....Yet they are passing laws. Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Sep 2019 9.41pm) Do they have more numbers than the Tories? If so you can hardly blame them for how they arrived at that.
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Stirlingsays 09 Sep 19 9.52pm | |
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Originally posted by silvertop
Do they have more numbers than the Tories? If so you can hardly blame them for how they arrived at that. The left do collectively yes....No I don't blame them for the numbers. However, that doesn't change the fact that they have zero mandate. This situation is untenable democratically. We need an election date....and this is a separate issue from Brexit, whether we have left or not.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Badger11 Beckenham 10 Sep 19 7.45am | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Not the issue. We all have opinions. The electorate express their's on who they want to represent them at a GE. Once done those they choose express their's in Parliament. That's the mandate the people give them. Most MP's are neither really left, or right. By far the bulk of them are in the middle and just lean a little in one direction. There is much more that the centre right of the Tory Party, the Lib Dems, the SNP and the centre left of the Labour Party have in common with each other than they do with their extreme wings. All are democrats who believe in the supremacy of Parliament. Any Party which drifts too far from the centre will never command a majority on it's own. That's as true of the Tories under Johnson as it is of Labour under Corbyn. Deselecting moderates in the name of purging unwelcome views would be committing political suicide. Edited by Wisbech Eagle (09 Sep 2019 7.54pm) You forget that these "moderates" are wilfully ignoring the official policy of the party which is currently endorsed by the majority of the members. They had an opportunity before we Brexit to state their case at the Conservative Party conference which is precisely the forum for changing policy. Instead they chose to oppose their own party / government at a time when it was not necessary as crunch time will be mid October. Yet another example of losers refusing to respect majority wishes. They could have supported the government whilst arguing for a change in policy they didn't so they must pay the price. I am sure they would be allowed back on that basis. Argue your case but respect the majority decision by all means continue to argue your case but you have to respect the key policy of your party.
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Teddy Eagle 10 Sep 19 8.53am | |
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Midlands Eagle 10 Sep 19 8.55am | |
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Originally posted by Badger11
As well as the wishes of the constituents who voted for them (cue more blather about MPs not being delegates)
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Midlands Eagle 10 Sep 19 8.56am | |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
We are lucky enough to have about four overseas holidays a year and I don't smoke so perhaps I should set up a little sideline
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 10 Sep 19 9.00am | |
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Originally posted by Badger11
You forget that these "moderates" are wilfully ignoring the official policy of the party which is currently endorsed by the majority of the members. They had an opportunity before we Brexit to state their case at the Conservative Party conference which is precisely the forum for changing policy. Instead they chose to oppose their own party / government at a time when it was not necessary as crunch time will be mid October. Yet another example of losers refusing to respect majority wishes. They could have supported the government whilst arguing for a change in policy they didn't so they must pay the price. I am sure they would be allowed back on that basis. Argue your case but respect the majority decision by all means continue to argue your case but you have to respect the key policy of your party. I don't know how many times I need to say this but we don't elect delegates we elect representatives. MPs are not party delegates. They don't have to endorse the line held by the majority of their members. That's the attitude adopted by the Labour party and it's as wrong for them as it is for the Tories and should it ever become accepted it would be the end of Parliamentary democracy as we know it. We might then just as well send voting machines to the House of Commons and leave all the decision making to party conferences. For the smooth running of Government most MPs will, most of the time, follow the directions given to them by their party, via the whips. The important thing though to realise is that they do so not by law, but by convention. The choice of whether to obey the whip is their's, and their's alone, to make. At all times their duty is to obey their conscience when deciding what is in the best interests of ALL their constituents, and not just those who voted for them, and the country as a whole. If that sometimes brings them into conflict with official party policy then so be it. I would rather live under a system in which we are governed by people free to express themselves at all times, than risk a situation in which the party machine can be usurped to produce a form of neo-dictatorship. The party system only exists to allow people with sufficiently similar views to come together to form a government. It does not over-ride the duties and rights of any individual MP. Parliament's job is to give us what they believe we need and not to give us what we want and, even more importantly, what just some of us want. If they can see that events have moved sufficiently far from the situation that existed in 2016 that a new look is now appropriate, then that's not only their right but also their duty to act. That some don't like it, because it doesn't suit their personal opinion, is a given, but that doesn't mean that they are acting incorrectly.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Badger11 Beckenham 10 Sep 19 9.05am | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I don't know how many times I need to say this but we don't elect delegates we elect representatives. MPs are not party delegates. They don't have to endorse the line held by the majority of their members. That's the attitude adopted by the Labour party and it's as wrong for them as it is for the Tories and should it ever become accepted it would be the end of Parliamentary democracy as we know it. We might then just as well send voting machines to the House of Commons and leave all the decision making to party conferences. For the smooth running of Government most MPs will, most of the time, follow the directions given to them by their party, via the whips. The important thing though to realise is that they do so not by law, but by convention. The choice of whether to obey the whip is their's, and their's alone, to make. At all times their duty is to obey their conscience when deciding what is in the best interests of ALL their constituents, and not just those who voted for them, and the country as a whole. If that sometimes brings them into conflict with official party policy then so be it. I would rather live under a system in which we are governed by people free to express themselves at all times, than risk a situation in which the party machine can be usurped to produce a form of neo-dictatorship. The party system only exists to allow people with sufficiently similar views to come together to form a government. It does not over-ride the duties and rights of any individual MP. Parliament's job is to give us what they believe we need and not to give us what we want and, even more importantly, what just some of us want. If they can see that events have moved sufficiently far from the situation that existed in 2016 that a new look is now appropriate, then that's not only their right but also their duty to act. That some don't like it, because it doesn't suit their personal opinion, is a given, but that doesn't mean that they are acting incorrectly. You are muddling up your view of what an MP is and the role of a party member. I am not talking about the constitution or the role and responsibility of an MP. I am making a party political point that if you go against your own party they are entitled to discipline you and expel you according to their rules.
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