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cryrst Flag The garden of England 09 Sep 19 8.44pm Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

I would laugh my tits off if boris doesnt offer a GE after all this crap.
Then labour wouldn't be able to winge on for a full two years about it. Peace at last and probably the end of the corbyn and abbot show.
Even with an extension it could still end up no deal.
What is the point.
The eu might even refuse an extension yet.
May's deal will come back and then it's a bit of
Why bother.
Some mps are regretting knocking it back 1st 2nd and 3rd time.
Ahh karma is a bitch.

 

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silvertop Flag Portishead 09 Sep 19 8.48pm Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

The left have a majority in the commons yet they have zero mandate from the people for it.

Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Sep 2019 7.38pm)

Rather depends on how you define left. To many posters on here that definItion appears to include anyone east of those advocating a picture of Hitler on the side of an ICBM.

 

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Teddy Eagle Flag 09 Sep 19 8.51pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Not the issue.

We all have opinions. The electorate express their's on who they want to represent them at a GE.

Once done those they choose express their's in Parliament. That's the mandate the people give them.

Most MP's are neither really left, or right. By far the bulk of them are in the middle and just lean a little in one direction. There is much more that the centre right of the Tory Party, the Lib Dems, the SNP and the centre left of the Labour Party have in common with each other than they do with their extreme wings. All are democrats who believe in the supremacy of Parliament.

Any Party which drifts too far from the centre will never command a majority on it's own. That's as true of the Tories under Johnson as it is of Labour under Corbyn.

Deselecting moderates in the name of purging unwelcome views would be committing political suicide.

Edited by Wisbech Eagle (09 Sep 2019 7.54pm)

We are truly blessed to live in an era with such titans of political life. God forbid our future were to be left in the hands of non-entities, lightweights and self interested morons,

 

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Stirlingsays Flag 09 Sep 19 9.40pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

Rather depends on how you define left. To many posters on here that definItion appears to include anyone east of those advocating a picture of Hitler on the side of an ICBM.

I think we can define the modern day Labour party as left don't you think? And it's them who now hold the majority.

Zero mandate....Yet they are passing laws.

Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Sep 2019 9.41pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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silvertop Flag Portishead 09 Sep 19 9.47pm Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I think we can define the modern day Labour party as left don't you think? And it's them who now hold the majority.

Zero mandate....Yet they are passing laws.

Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Sep 2019 9.41pm)

Do they have more numbers than the Tories? If so you can hardly blame them for how they arrived at that.

 

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Stirlingsays Flag 09 Sep 19 9.52pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

Do they have more numbers than the Tories? If so you can hardly blame them for how they arrived at that.

The left do collectively yes....No I don't blame them for the numbers.

However, that doesn't change the fact that they have zero mandate. This situation is untenable democratically.

We need an election date....and this is a separate issue from Brexit, whether we have left or not.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Badger11 Flag Beckenham 10 Sep 19 7.45am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Not the issue.

We all have opinions. The electorate express their's on who they want to represent them at a GE.

Once done those they choose express their's in Parliament. That's the mandate the people give them.

Most MP's are neither really left, or right. By far the bulk of them are in the middle and just lean a little in one direction. There is much more that the centre right of the Tory Party, the Lib Dems, the SNP and the centre left of the Labour Party have in common with each other than they do with their extreme wings. All are democrats who believe in the supremacy of Parliament.

Any Party which drifts too far from the centre will never command a majority on it's own. That's as true of the Tories under Johnson as it is of Labour under Corbyn.

Deselecting moderates in the name of purging unwelcome views would be committing political suicide.

Edited by Wisbech Eagle (09 Sep 2019 7.54pm)

You forget that these "moderates" are wilfully ignoring the official policy of the party which is currently endorsed by the majority of the members.

They had an opportunity before we Brexit to state their case at the Conservative Party conference which is precisely the forum for changing policy. Instead they chose to oppose their own party / government at a time when it was not necessary as crunch time will be mid October.

Yet another example of losers refusing to respect majority wishes. They could have supported the government whilst arguing for a change in policy they didn't so they must pay the price.

I am sure they would be allowed back on that basis.

Argue your case but respect the majority decision by all means continue to argue your case but you have to respect the key policy of your party.

 


One more point

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Teddy Eagle Flag 10 Sep 19 8.53am Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend


At least after Brexit we’ll have duty free fags back on trips to Europe so you know.....swings & roundabouts.

 

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Midlands Eagle Flag 10 Sep 19 8.55am Send a Private Message to Midlands Eagle Add Midlands Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11


You forget that these "moderates" are wilfully ignoring the official policy of the party which is currently endorsed by the majority of the members.

As well as the wishes of the constituents who voted for them (cue more blather about MPs not being delegates)

 

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Midlands Eagle Flag 10 Sep 19 8.56am Send a Private Message to Midlands Eagle Add Midlands Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle


At least after Brexit we’ll have duty free fags back on trips to Europe so you know.....swings & roundabouts.

We are lucky enough to have about four overseas holidays a year and I don't smoke so perhaps I should set up a little sideline

 

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Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 10 Sep 19 9.00am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

You forget that these "moderates" are wilfully ignoring the official policy of the party which is currently endorsed by the majority of the members.

They had an opportunity before we Brexit to state their case at the Conservative Party conference which is precisely the forum for changing policy. Instead they chose to oppose their own party / government at a time when it was not necessary as crunch time will be mid October.

Yet another example of losers refusing to respect majority wishes. They could have supported the government whilst arguing for a change in policy they didn't so they must pay the price.

I am sure they would be allowed back on that basis.

Argue your case but respect the majority decision by all means continue to argue your case but you have to respect the key policy of your party.

I don't know how many times I need to say this but we don't elect delegates we elect representatives.

MPs are not party delegates. They don't have to endorse the line held by the majority of their members. That's the attitude adopted by the Labour party and it's as wrong for them as it is for the Tories and should it ever become accepted it would be the end of Parliamentary democracy as we know it. We might then just as well send voting machines to the House of Commons and leave all the decision making to party conferences.

For the smooth running of Government most MPs will, most of the time, follow the directions given to them by their party, via the whips. The important thing though to realise is that they do so not by law, but by convention. The choice of whether to obey the whip is their's, and their's alone, to make.

At all times their duty is to obey their conscience when deciding what is in the best interests of ALL their constituents, and not just those who voted for them, and the country as a whole. If that sometimes brings them into conflict with official party policy then so be it. I would rather live under a system in which we are governed by people free to express themselves at all times, than risk a situation in which the party machine can be usurped to produce a form of neo-dictatorship.

The party system only exists to allow people with sufficiently similar views to come together to form a government. It does not over-ride the duties and rights of any individual MP.

Parliament's job is to give us what they believe we need and not to give us what we want and, even more importantly, what just some of us want. If they can see that events have moved sufficiently far from the situation that existed in 2016 that a new look is now appropriate, then that's not only their right but also their duty to act. That some don't like it, because it doesn't suit their personal opinion, is a given, but that doesn't mean that they are acting incorrectly.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Badger11 Flag Beckenham 10 Sep 19 9.05am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I don't know how many times I need to say this but we don't elect delegates we elect representatives.

MPs are not party delegates. They don't have to endorse the line held by the majority of their members. That's the attitude adopted by the Labour party and it's as wrong for them as it is for the Tories and should it ever become accepted it would be the end of Parliamentary democracy as we know it. We might then just as well send voting machines to the House of Commons and leave all the decision making to party conferences.

For the smooth running of Government most MPs will, most of the time, follow the directions given to them by their party, via the whips. The important thing though to realise is that they do so not by law, but by convention. The choice of whether to obey the whip is their's, and their's alone, to make.

At all times their duty is to obey their conscience when deciding what is in the best interests of ALL their constituents, and not just those who voted for them, and the country as a whole. If that sometimes brings them into conflict with official party policy then so be it. I would rather live under a system in which we are governed by people free to express themselves at all times, than risk a situation in which the party machine can be usurped to produce a form of neo-dictatorship.

The party system only exists to allow people with sufficiently similar views to come together to form a government. It does not over-ride the duties and rights of any individual MP.

Parliament's job is to give us what they believe we need and not to give us what we want and, even more importantly, what just some of us want. If they can see that events have moved sufficiently far from the situation that existed in 2016 that a new look is now appropriate, then that's not only their right but also their duty to act. That some don't like it, because it doesn't suit their personal opinion, is a given, but that doesn't mean that they are acting incorrectly.

You are muddling up your view of what an MP is and the role of a party member. I am not talking about the constitution or the role and responsibility of an MP.

I am making a party political point that if you go against your own party they are entitled to discipline you and expel you according to their rules.

 


One more point

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