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Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?
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 Grumbles 02 May 22 8.54pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
The authoritarianism and hatred on the left is just incredible. Wanting to use the treason act because people disagree with the government policy. This country isn't at war and people are allowed opinions. Incredible. Perhaps people should just shut up and give them the manufactured consent their authoritarianism craves.....perhaps they have far more in common with Putin than they realise. Edited by Stirlingsays (02 May 2022 7.41pm) God knows who you are talking on the left perhaps it just the norm majority seeing Putinistas for the appease-cick cowards they really are.
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Rudi Hedman  Caterham 02 May 22 8.57pm |
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Originally posted by W12
I am actually proposing we do nothing in Ukraine. Am I a coward? I remember when cowardice was not fighting for the survival of your own people. Now it’s not putting a certain flag on your social media profile. We aren’t doing anything in Ukraine but I’m talking about people on social media spreading their superior knowledge and opinion we should turn a blind eye and provide no assistance at all. It’s fairly obvious a lot of these people wouldn’t say this to people with their country and freedom being chucked away. Remember how many Ukrainians have gone back to risk their lives for their country’s independence. More brave than those saying we should do nothing at all in home comfort. I just think you’re pro Russia for some bizarre reason
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BlueJay  UK 02 May 22 8.57pm |
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Originally posted by W12
And maybe more specific about the alleged war crimes. I fear we are just demonising Russians as much as anything. I actually went to lengths earlier in the thread to do this for one poster and it was pointless, because it all just leads to the next 'no, prove this' , 'it could've been x instead' 'crisis actors' yada yada. I got down to street level, address and footage an an elderly couple getting blown to pieces by a Russian tank and still always another comeback. Your threshold for any crime said to have been committed by Russians would be so high it's pointless. No mass grave, no torture, no bombardment would mean a hill of beans. If you honestly believe that a widescale invasion of Ukraine by Russia where thousands of civilians are likely dead has solely resulted in 'war crimes' by 'Ukranian neo nazis' then that pretty much says it all I'm afraid. It's war, this stuff happens on both sides, but it's a kick in the teeth for a besieged people to solely blame them for their own torture and death as they are bombed to hell. Countless Ukranians (far from only being in Russian heavy areas) have met this fate.
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| W12 02 May 22 9.03pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
There are actual videos of war crimes being committed in this war. There is a lot of footage. They are there if people want to find the raw realities. Some horrible stuff has been done and video footage of people driving knifes into the eyes of a POW isn't lying or propaganda. Apparently being curious enough to actually investigate this stuff means that you're putting yourself forward as superior.....for feck's sake....no one is stopping people from actually checking stuff out. I say check it out and come to your own conclusions, what I think is only for me. Do you think the people commenting on actual war crimes have done anything other than read news reports? I doubt it. War crimes get carried out by terrible and damaged people and you will find them on all sides of any conflict. I don't doubt that the Russians have carried out war crimes but as there is less footage on their side.....I suspect that's been ordered or maybe it hasn't because it's more of a professional army....I don't know. I want the situation in Burka investigated and when that report comes out I will be interested. I have questions that I would like to see answered but occam's razor suggests that Russian war crimes happened there. I remember that the Ukraine said they would investigate the video of Ukrainians shooting Russian POWs in the knees and leaving them to die would be investigated......that was weeks ago and there's nothing. This seems to be the best breakdown of what happened in Busha because it’s referenced with a timeline and media reports etc. Dates are important here. I’ve not seen evidence off Russian was crimes on an scale (I agree war crimes happen in all large wars on both sides) Well worth a read in full. [Link]
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| Stirlingsays 02 May 22 9.03pm |
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Originally posted by BlueJay
Pretty sure he was just making a broad point about those taking a startlingly heavily Russian centred stance on the issue. Possibly to a wider extent commenting on the 'alt media intelligentsia' types on social media who scoff at 'normies' and mainstream while so unquestionably being spoon fed specific social and political takes that they become a more out there, more pronounced and predictable version of what they themselves criticise. If others don't get a free rise, they don't deserve one either. I was told to 'f*** off to Ukraine' and fight for them a few pages back by someone for defending Russia. If that's what someone thinks in the moment so be it. The argument of questioning arming Ukrainians I suppose is that it's very easy to throw others to the wolves from the comfort of your own home. In the past I've often had some time for your views and sometimes you will post on matters which I agree with. As I've said previously I personally have no special dislike for you even though you think it's fine to talk about my family, which really should be off road. However, on topics we don't agree on you tend to get personally offended and become very angry. You aren't averse to making up narratives....which no doubt you personally believe....but which are your own reaching assumptions. I think you do this out of personal animosity and dislike. Ok fine, but I'm tired of this, that's why I don't reply to your obvious criticisms. I've rather converse with those who aren't two posts away from pointlessly calling you a pr1ck. I think it's just best we don't post at each other because it doesn't go well. Apparently even past posters I regarded well now think I should be exported. Maybe I'm just getting older but I'm getting rather fed up with this. Edited by Stirlingsays (02 May 2022 9.05pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 02 May 22 9.06pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
There are actual videos of war crimes being committed in this war. There is a lot of footage. They are there if people want to find the raw realities. Some horrible stuff has been done and video footage of people driving knifes into the eyes of a POW isn't lying or propaganda. Apparently being curious enough to actually investigate this stuff means that you're putting yourself forward as superior.....for feck's sake....no one is stopping people from actually checking stuff out. I say check it out and come to your own conclusions, what I think is only for me. Do you think the people commenting on actual war crimes have done anything other than read news reports? I doubt it. War crimes get carried out by terrible and damaged people and you will find them on all sides of any conflict. I don't doubt that the Russians have carried out war crimes but as there is less footage on their side.....I suspect that's been ordered or maybe it hasn't because it's more of a professional army....I don't know. I want the situation in Burka investigated and when that report comes out I will be interested. I have questions that I would like to see answered but occam's razor suggests that Russian war crimes happened there. I remember that the Ukraine said they would investigate the video of Ukrainians shooting Russian POWs in the knees and leaving them to die would be investigated......that was weeks ago and there's nothing. I don’t doubt any of that. It’s war. It’s horrible and causes people to carry out evil acts. Russia is the invader. Sure we can understand why they’ve invaded, for the purposes of negotiations, but an invader is an invader, and they aren’t just after the Russian identity part of Ukraine. It’s the people who’ve said we shouldn’t have done anything that make me just want to not listen to their opinions again. I know that’s not what you’ve said and I haven’t replied to your posts either. I agree there’s going to have to be some peace talks or this won’t ever end, but I don’t like the idea of a Europe where we just leave countries to be taken over at will. We haven’t and I believe we’ve done the right thing morally and strategically beneficial and safer longer term.
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| W12 02 May 22 9.09pm | |
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Originally posted by BlueJay
I actually went to lengths earlier in the thread to do this for one poster and it was pointless, because it all just leads to the next 'no, prove this' , 'it could've been x instead' 'crisis actors' yada yada. I got down to street level, address and footage an an elderly couple getting blown to pieces by a Russian tank and still always another comeback. Your threshold for any crime said to have been committed by Russians would be so high it's pointless. No mass grave, no torture, no bombardment would mean a hill of beans. If you honestly believe that a widescale invasion of Ukraine by Russia where thousands of civilians are likely dead has solely resulted in 'war crimes' by 'Ukranian neo nazis' then that pretty much says it all I'm afraid. It's war, this stuff happens on both sides, but it's a kick in the teeth for a besieged people to solely blame them for their own torture and death as they are bombed to hell. Countless Ukranians (far from only being in Russian heavy areas) have met this fate.
Which elements of that could in no way be true?
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| Grumbles 02 May 22 9.15pm |
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Originally posted by W12
Which elements of that could in no way be true? circa 80% of the Ukrainian bit.
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 02 May 22 9.17pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
In the past I've often had some time for your views and sometimes you will post on matters which I agree with. As I've said previously I personally have no special dislike for you even though you think it's fine to talk about my family, which really should be off road. However, on topics we don't agree on you tend to get personally offended and become very angry. You aren't averse to making up narratives....which no doubt you personally believe....but which are your own reaching assumptions. I think you do this out of personal animosity and dislike. Ok fine, but I'm tired of this, that's why I don't reply to your obvious criticisms. I've rather converse with those who aren't two posts away from pointlessly calling you a pr1ck. I think it's just best we don't post at each other because it doesn't go well. Apparently even past posters I regarded well now think I should be exported. Maybe I'm just getting older but I'm getting rather fed up with this. Edited by Stirlingsays (02 May 2022 9.05pm) I edited that because what I meant to say was maybe, instead of their ‘’leave them to suffer a loss of freedom’’ from home comfort safety they should try out Ukraine or Russian rule, or no freedom of experiment Russia. Actually no freedom at all as they’d be in jail for holding a piece of plain paper. And actually you got angry at me for some reason when I was referring to the typical attention craving idiots on social media. I know you agreed on Ukraine defending itself and to some extent the donations of weapons, but there hasn’t been any progression onto peace talks. With that we aren’t actually that far apart. It’s the people on social media who somehow think being anti whatever and whatever the cost to innocent people and their liberty is fine, and it’s fine as theirs isn’t at risk right now.
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 georgenorman 02 May 22 9.17pm |
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So much utter nonesense on this thread.
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| Stirlingsays 02 May 22 9.19pm |
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Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
I don’t doubt any of that. It’s war. It’s horrible and causes people to carry out evil acts. Russia is the invader. Sure we can understand why they’ve invaded, for the purposes of negotiations, but an invader is an invader, and they aren’t just after the Russian identity part of Ukraine. It’s the people who’ve said we shouldn’t have done anything that make me just want to not listen to their opinions again. I know that’s not what you’ve said and I haven’t replied to your posts either. I agree there’s going to have to be some peace talks or this won’t ever end, but I don’t like the idea of a Europe where we just leave countries to be taken over at will. We haven’t and I believe we’ve done the right thing morally and strategically beneficial and safer longer term. Well I can respect that view. Yes, Russia started this, a 'pro Russia' stance isn't really appropriate, when really the 'contrarian' viewpoint should really be a 'pro peace' one. However, personally I don't think giving a huge number of weapons into the Ukraine is going to end well for us. My point is that economically this is extremely negative and for the vulnerable people in the world. A quick war where we provided humanitarian aid and sanctioned Russia.....while reinforcing Nato countries was....in my view...the least damaging stance to take. A cold war, which splits the world, and puts a lot of people back to the economic seventies, is the most damaging. Similar to my covid position my position is that the consequences of our response are far worse than the war itself......I don't go all in on a bad hand, and I think that's what we had. That isn't 'pro Russian', I just view it as playing the odds....the least damage to my people.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 02 May 22 9.19pm |
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Originally posted by W12
Which elements of that could in no way be true? Bl00dy hell. There’s no hope here
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