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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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 Willo  South coast - west of Brighton. 07 Sep 19 9.10am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Parliament haven't "seized control" of anything! They have asserted their control, which the government was attempting to hijack. Of course they haven't proposed an alternative plan. They are not in power so not responsible for devising detailed exit plans. They scrutinise and approve the plans of who-ever is in government and responsible. There are several possible "plans" that Parliament might now accept. The first is to stop the headlong rush to an unstructured exit and give time to pause, reflect and decide. There may well now be a majority to accept the "May" plan, or a further referendum with a binary choice of a "no deal" exit or to remain. More likely is to hold a GE and ask a new Parliament to choose an executive to find a solution. We can agree though that the British electorate need better. They don't need a posturing, blustering buffoon pretending he will be able to drive through a successful deal when it's plainly obvious to everyone that he cannot. In terms of Parliamentary "Control", they have certainly taken control of the Commons business and having rejected the May deal THREE times are now trying to force Johnson to either postpone, or indeed kill off Brexit by seeking yet another extension to Article 50.How many more darned extensions are we to have ? Parliament have been howling blue moon about the constitutional outrage of prorogation but it is Parliament who have mounted a coup d'etat NOT Boris Johnson.Since 2016, Parliament have used every procedural mechanism to frustrate the result of the referendum, totally disregarding the will of the majority.
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cryrst  The garden of England 07 Sep 19 9.13am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I think we can trust Parliament to ensure that isn't likely to be the case. That's what we pay them to do. But again.
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| Badger11 Beckenham 07 Sep 19 9.22am |
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Originally posted by Willo
As you mentioned 'Parliament' it is appropriate for me to elucidate that they have siezed control of the Commons but have NO viable plan to take the country forward so where are their "Viable alternatives" ? Boris Johnson is the only party leader even trying to honour the result of the referendum by attempting to get Brexit over the line.The rest are trying to frustrate it.The zombie Parliament has become an international embarrassment.They have pulled the rug from under Johnson's feet and it must be put out of it's misery.The long suffering British electorate deserves a good deal better. Definitely bedtime now ! Goodnight one and all and sleep tight ! Edited by Willo (07 Sep 2019 12.21am) Quite agree Willo. The job of the opposition is twofold to oppose government legislation (or point out it's flaws) and then to propose alternate solutions. This parliament has successfully defeated the government it now has a responsibility to either form a new government or if that is not possible then to agree a GE. It is shameful that the opposition are doing neither but just filibustering. It's not just Brexit that is stuck no new major legislation can be introduced until this is resolved. The opposition have been demanding a GE for months claiming that the electorate support their view on Brexit so why are they running scared of putting that to the test. It seems that every week a poll comes out which they claim supports their position but the only opinion poll that matters is the GE. The next time Corbyn and co start banging on about the poor or the NHS etc. I hope they are taken to task by the press. If they care so much about these issues then why are you delaying a GE which would allow you to address them. As for Labour's Brexit position it's a joke. *If the EU know that Labour will campaign against any EU deal why would they give us a good one? Parliament needs to put up or shut up.
One more point |
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 Hrolf The Ganger 07 Sep 19 9.23am |
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Originally posted by Willo
In terms of Parliamentary "Control", they have certainly taken control of the Commons business and having rejected the May deal THREE times are now trying to force Johnson to either postpone, or indeed kill off Brexit by seeking yet another extension to Article 50.How many more darned extensions are we to have ? Parliament have been howling blue moon about the constitutional outrage of prorogation but it is Parliament who have mounted a coup d'etat NOT Boris Johnson.Since 2016, Parliament have used every procedural mechanism to frustrate the result of the referendum, totally disregarding the will of the majority. You do have to wonder, as I did at the time, if the suicidal election campaign was a deliberate move by May to reduce the Tory majority and make all this possible. Conspiracy theories aside, it is only the lack of a decent Tory majority that is preventing Brexit.
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 07 Sep 19 9.23am |
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Originally posted by Spiderman
Ridiculous. If you take the one option the EU do not want off the table you have little wriggle room, that is stupidity You don't leave the only option on the table as something which is unacceptable to your own Parliament! You need to show them that you have an alternative which they can accept. Without that your position is pointless. What you seem to forget is that Johnson is not a dictator able to commit the UK on his own. He is a PM who speaks only with the authority given to him by Parliament. As I have said several times before this dispute is much more than simply a wrangle over Brexit. It is a fundamental challenge to the way our system works and Parliament cannot allow itself to lose it.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 07 Sep 19 9.27am |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
More drivel. The government are trying to carry out the promise made to leave the EU. The deal should be left to those who are negotiating it because Remainers in Parliament are clearly determined to scupper any deal or lack of one that materialises. Hrolf We are on the 'Same page' on this matter. At the end of the day when a ruling elite totally disregards the will of the majority then democracy is seriously compromised.
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| Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 07 Sep 19 9.41am |
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Originally posted by Badger11
Quite agree Willo. The job of the opposition is twofold to oppose government legislation (or point out it's flaws) and then to propose alternate solutions. This parliament has successfully defeated the government it now has a responsibility to either form a new government or if that is not possible then to agree a GE. It is shameful that the opposition are doing neither but just filibustering. It's not just Brexit that is stuck no new major legislation can be introduced until this is resolved. The opposition have been demanding a GE for months claiming that the electorate support their view on Brexit so why are they running scared of putting that to the test. It seems that every week a poll comes out which they claim supports their position but the only opinion poll that matters is the GE. The next time Corbyn and co start banging on about the poor or the NHS etc. I hope they are taken to task by the press. If they care so much about these issues then why are you delaying a GE which would allow you to address them. As for Labour's Brexit position it's a joke. *If the EU know that Labour will campaign against any EU deal why would they give us a good one? Parliament needs to put up or shut up.
Badger May I heartedly congratulate you on your excellent post. Edited by Willo (07 Sep 2019 9.43am)
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| Badger11 Beckenham 07 Sep 19 9.48am |
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Never mind 31 Oct I am looking forward to November 5.
One more point |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 07 Sep 19 10.11am |
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Originally posted by Badger11
Quite agree Willo. The job of the opposition is twofold to oppose government legislation (or point out it's flaws) and then to propose alternate solutions. This parliament has successfully defeated the government it now has a responsibility to either form a new government or if that is not possible then to agree a GE. It is shameful that the opposition are doing neither but just filibustering. It's not just Brexit that is stuck no new major legislation can be introduced until this is resolved. The opposition have been demanding a GE for months claiming that the electorate support their view on Brexit so why are they running scared of putting that to the test. It seems that every week a poll comes out which they claim supports their position but the only opinion poll that matters is the GE. The next time Corbyn and co start banging on about the poor or the NHS etc. I hope they are taken to task by the press. If they care so much about these issues then why are you delaying a GE which would allow you to address them. As for Labour's Brexit position it's a joke. *If the EU know that Labour will campaign against any EU deal why would they give us a good one? Parliament needs to put up or shut up.
That's just BS. This isn't the opposition opposing. This is Parliament as a whole asserting their supremacy over the executive and stopping a plan by a government that there is no majority for. The Labour Party are but one part of Parliament. Should they form, or lead, a future government then that will be the time to judge what their alternative plan might be. Until then the only issue is the plan of the current government. As the moves by Johnson to call a GE at this time, after his prorogation fiasco, is clearly just a tactic to try to force through his plan it is absolutely the duty of Parliament to reject them. That Johnson tries to waffle about this being Labour "running scared" etc etc is just the scripted responses of the strategy team behind him. It has the stink of Trump like tactics all over it. Fortunately I believe that the British public aren't quite so gullible as a large section of that in the USA but some clearly are. I know where I can get my hands on some great snake oil, if you are interested. Everyone in every walk of life has to determine their priorities. As Brexit is the overwhelming political priority then making sure we don't do something that Parliament doesn't want must be their priority. Promising election give aways and trying to shift the focus is such a transparent tactical ploy that only the really stupid are not going to see through it. Edited by Wisbech Eagle (07 Sep 2019 10.12am)
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 07 Sep 19 10.21am |
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Originally posted by Willo
Hrolf We are on the 'Same page' on this matter. At the end of the day when a ruling elite totally disregards the will of the majority then democracy is seriously compromised. We live in a Parliamentary democracy in which the "elite" are the government of the day and Parliament expresses the will of the majority. So you are right, but not in the way you intended. If a government disregards Parliament's will then our democracy is indeed threatened.
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 07 Sep 19 10.25am |
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Originally posted by cryrst
But again. You, together with all the other voters where you live, choose your MP! That's your role. If collectively you are unhappy with the job they do then change them, when there is an opportunity to do so. Until then they have a job to do. Which they are doing.
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| Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 07 Sep 19 10.30am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
We live in a Parliamentary democracy in which the "elite" are the government of the day and Parliament expresses the will of the majority. So you are right, but not in the way you intended. If a government disregards Parliament's will then our democracy is indeed threatened. With the utmost respect, Parliament is not expressing the will of the people when the majority voted to leave the EU.A total of 17.4 million voted to leave the EU but MPs refuse to carry out their instruction. On that note I must leave now for a coffee with my Conservative 'Leave' chums !!
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