Plenty of realities are obscured (the likes of Edward Snowdens revelations would be one good example), but not everything ever is some kind of dark reality where you're being dragged down or lied to by the West. You think routinely laughable Kremlin propaganda is a step up? You've gone so all in that it's pure Putin mouthpiece territory with the mocking of a besieged people as lying Neo Nazis endlessly creating 'crisis actor' situations, while denying that Russians have engaged in war crimes at all. To you the Ukrainian fighters are 'scumbags', and our forefather would be ashamed of us arming them. If you think that's a position you've reasoned you've into or that it would have anything other than a disastrous outcome for Ukraine (to be left unarmed, to the wolves) then I think you're very mistaken.

I don’t think so. Again, I would love to be wrong.

And maybe more specific about the alleged war crimes. I fear we are just demonising Russians as much as anything.

Pretty sure he was just making a broad point about those taking a startlingly heavily Russian centred stance on the issue. Possibly to a wider extent commenting on the 'alt media intelligentsia' types on social media who scoff at 'normies' and mainstream while so unquestionably being spoon fed specific social and political takes that they become a more out there, more pronounced and predictable version of what they themselves criticise. If others don't get a free rise, they don't deserve one either.

I was told to 'f*** off to Ukraine' and fight for them a few pages back by someone for defending Russia. If that's what someone thinks in the moment so be it. The argument of questioning arming Ukrainians I suppose is that it's very easy to throw others to the wolves from the comfort of your own home.

There are actual videos of war crimes being committed in this war. There is a lot of footage. They are there if people want to find the raw realities. Some horrible stuff has been done and video footage of people driving knifes into the eyes of a POW isn't lying or propaganda.

Apparently being curious enough to actually investigate this stuff means that you're putting yourself forward as superior.....for feck's sake....no one is stopping people from actually checking stuff out. I say check it out and come to your own conclusions, what I think is only for me.

Do you think the people commenting on actual war crimes have done anything other than read news reports? I doubt it.

War crimes get carried out by terrible and damaged people and you will find them on all sides of any conflict. I don't doubt that the Russians have carried out war crimes but but there is less footage on their side.....I suspect that's been ordered or maybe it hasn't because it's more of a professional army....I don't know.

I want the situation in Burka investigated and when that report comes out I will be interested. I have questions that I would like to see answered but occam's razor suggests that Russian war crimes happened there.

I remember that the Ukraine said they would investigate the video of Ukrainians shooting Russian POWs in the knees and leaving them to die would be investigated......that was weeks ago and there's nothing.

Edited by Stirlingsays (02 May 2022 9.07pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

The Russian army can defend themselves. Ukrainian civilians can’t. Our main difference is our understanding of who is attacking the Ukrainian civilians and that is based on my understanding that civilians in the east are Russians and the Ukrainian forces in the east are in large parts ethno nationalists with a documented history of atrocities

Edited by W12 (02 May 2022 8.55pm)