Taking away the ideologies of Brexit, which I understand completely. Should we be able to control immigration? I think every country should and the EU could actually fix the immigration debate by having a break off point, for example, if net migration hits +10% or whatever, then that country can choose to slow down it's entry rates for the next 4 years and start again.

Do I believe every country should be sovereign? Of course, but to a point. My gripe with the whole sovereignty thing is that I don't really know what the EU have done to interfere with any government policies carried out since we joined. We've sold off council flats, had recessions, implemented austerity (For 99.9% of people), we have 'controlled' or not our borders from countries outside the EU. We have control of our currency, interest rates, inflation rates, vat, taxes and spending. Yes we have to pay the EU their share, but we also get a lot back.

I bang on about this all the time, but, Brexit hasn't stopped me wondering here all the taxes from the FANGS are. IMHO the problem isn't just the EU, the problem is that if we raise taxes to 90%, the rich, who benefit from our system can move their money to Ireland and pay 12%. This is where I would actually like to see the EU come and say all base tax rates are 20% in all EU countries. I'm a big fan of market competition, so how about the Gvmt owening all patents and everyone can make an Iphone and we see who'sis best. The patent holder would obviously get a royalty from sales. I don't want to swindle anyone.

That's just a simple example. The problem is that we have a leader who is very much the kind of person I would have to right a speech for me, because that's all these Oxbridge debating team leaders are really good at and on the other side we have Corbyn, who for all his ideas to bring some of that wealth back down the chain, wants to do it in the 1970s way, which I do believe some of his ideas are pretty decent, but nothing he has come out with are game changers. And of course the Lib Dems, who are ed by a person who helped tuiton fees go up and brought austerity to us with the Tories.

As a nation we have created invented some of the most important things that has helped the World as a whole, but that sense of creation has just disappeared. Climate change is a massive reason and way of gaining sovereignty, by creating a new industry to be as self sufficient as possible and no one is even bothered about the potential benefits this could create.

Actually it is reflected in the recent voting as well, remain parties polled around 56%, higher than the tory/brexit leavers combined.

On a more serious note it is possible that he will persuade one of our allies (do we have any) to vote no in return for a favour.

Climate change and what response is the most sensible response to it is a valid topic.

However, this country has definitely taken steps (which have cost the poor more) down the road of green technologies. Personally I think nuclear fusion is the answer and that we have dragged our feet and cost ourselves a lot compared to France for example.

I do get your points but I would argue that the way we have been printing money is an anti democratic approach that will kill our sovereignty. The lucky thing is that everyone is doing it and God knows how it will be resolved. All I know is that if 2/3 of the World decide to drop the $ as the global currency, we're going to have bigger problems than Brexit.

I get the incentive bit. My issue is that companies get around not paying taxes, mainly by setting the companies up in low tax havens, transfers pricing, royalties and mangnt fees. The who owns the patent idea is to get rid of one way of reducing tax liabilities. It's all good having incentivised entrepreneurs but the bottom 90%, economically, need incentives to go out and work.

I do think that some form of comunocapitalism is going to happen though. It's inevitable. We live in a system where, if he bottom 20% decided to default on their debt,which is what the banks did, we would be f'd. It's not even that, if we had the BoE raise rates to 5%, we would also be f'd, which they should do, right, the economy is going so well now, we are told.

This is the main issue with governments in general. They impose policies that cost the sub 99% more than the top but don't do anything with it. We now have ULEZ. Now if you were to say to me that the money from that was going towards developing new ways of cutting down pollution, increasing battery life in cars, inventing new climate tech, then I would still be p'd off but I'm rational and could understand it. The problem is their lack of understanding and ingenuity.

So while I sympathise with the Brexit lot for being betrayed, what this whole process has shown is that this form of democracy cannot handle big issues. The fact that I could go and vote brexit, but change my mind to remain, if I saw a black cat run down the street is indeed my right. I'm just not sure it's productive.

Orban would probably do us that favour.....but regardless Johnson can't be forced.

Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Sep 2019 3.43pm)