Frankly, I'm done on this debate.

I see a lot off people quibbling over the details of this and that but not many thinking about the wider long term questions.
What will remaining in Europe mean for Britain in the long term?
That is what matters.

I can only see our importance and influence in Europe and the World being diminished by remaining. As more people join the EU as I'm sure they will, our vote on anything will be less influential and more and more people will be able to come here to compete for jobs, housing etc.
We have to have more control over that and we have to see the downside of the inevitability of the United States of Europe. Ideologically, that union sounds appealing but in reality each country will have it's interests weighed against all the others and the interests of those of the EU as a whole and those who run it.
We are only part of Europe by geography. We do not need to be governed by it because that will be the inevitable outcome if we remain.

VOTE LEAVE.

The problem with the debate for me is that the only people debating the subject are people that had already made their mind up for Leave or Remain. I doubt (although can't say this as a fact) very few people have been influenced by these kind of debates.

I'll be honest, I include myself in that. Before ever even opening this thread I knew I wanted to vote Leave. I have read a lot of things on here that have reinforced my views (in particular I think one of your comments), but I have also read a lot of things that have given me doubts about whether I will be making the right choice (well, none of us really know anyway). But I haven't changed my mind. I'm not sure many "don't knows" will have been on here and they are probably the ONLY people who we could've influenced one way or another.

It's 200 pages now of interesting debate but I bet there are very few contributors to this thread that are going to vote any differently to the way they'd have voted before this discussion started.

I take no issue with that by the way, I just think it's in our nature.

Edited by Part Time James (22 Jun 2016 9.31am)

The problem with the debate for me is that the only people debating the subject are people that had already made their mind up for Leave or Remain. I doubt (although can't say this as a fact) very few people have been influenced by these kind of debates.

I'll be honest, I include myself in that. Before ever even opening this thread I knew I wanted to vote Leave. I have read a lot of things on here that have reinforced my views (in particular I think one of your comments), but I have also read a lot of things that have given me doubts about whether I will be making the right choice (well, none of us really know anyway). But I haven't changed my mind. I'm not sure many "don't knows" will have been on here and they are probably the ONLY people who we could've influenced one way or another.

It's 200 pages now of interesting debate but I bet there are very few contributors to this thread that are going to vote any differently to the way they'd have voted before this discussion started.

I take no issue with that by the way, I just think it's in our nature.

Edited by Part Time James (22 Jun 2016 9.31am)

Agree with your summary, and my position is moreorless the same - my vote has not changed, but certain points from leave have made me think twice about my decision - in fact, one of your posts yesterday about looking at the bigger picture, and not voting solely on the low-level left v right immigration argument, did make me ponder my motives.

I think the issue is both side's unwillingness to accept the positives of the other side, and this makes it hard for anyone to consider their argument unbiased enough to allow it to change their mind - there are pros and cons to both arguments, and the unwillingness to accept this is pretty frustrating to see.

Had a leave campaigner come to my door. She didn't know much. I asked her what percentage of UK expenditure went to the EU. She thought it was about 40% she was shocked when I told her it was 1.1.
She knew that the UK had voted against 55 pieces of legislation but was shocked to find we had voted for over 2500. I asked how many of the top 100 regulations were down to the EU. She said 95. When I explained that actually out of the 100 95 are pretty much worldwide not from the EU.
She was unaware that local fishermen were only awarded 1 third of our quotas because the other 2 thirds were taken by just 3 companies. She started wittering on about regulations for hedgerows.I asked her why she thought we needed regulations. She couldn't answer. So I kindly explained about how they need to be a certain size to help maintain wildlife, ensure they are not too high etc etc.
I asked if she trusted Farage, she admitted she thought he's 'a bit racist '
I think I may have changed her mind! She was shocked when I said I didn't know how I was going to vote and might abstain.

What this shows is the total ignorance of people as to the real facts behind the EU. If someone canvassing wasn't that informed, What about Joe Public.

Then I had a row with the missus. My son asked how we were going to vote. When I said I don't know she said you're not thinking of voting out are you? You have to vote remain.
So I'm off to the pub.

Agree with your summary, and my position is moreorless the same - my vote has not changed, but certain points from leave have made me think twice about my decision - in fact, one of your posts yesterday about looking at the bigger picture, and not voting solely on the low-level left v right immigration argument, did make me ponder my motives.

I think the issue is both side's unwillingness to accept the positives of the other side, and this makes it hard for anyone to consider their argument unbiased enough to allow it to change their mind - there are pros and cons to both arguments, and the unwillingness to accept this is pretty frustrating to see.