Of course, both sides fight. That's what happens in a war, even undeclared ones. For years, though, some people wanted to deny that Russia was interfering and were behaving as 5th columnists within their own countries.

I know that our intelligence services are active and that what they do won't be publicised. That's not fooling anyone! That's just the nature of secret services. To compare that with what the Russians are doing in plain sight is ridiculous. We aren't shelling tower blocks in Moscow are we?

I also know the ruble has recovered. Primarily by manipulation and demands that oil and gas be paid for in it. It's a short-term effect which will have the long-term effect of stiffening and advancing the western determination to rid themselves of a reliance on Russia as a supplier. That kind of information doesn't make the headlines when people are dying, and cities flattened. It gets covered, but in the specialist columns.

This will turn out to be a massive miscalculation by Putin, who didn't expect the Ukrainians to resist as they have or the west to show the resolve thay have.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

That's a reasonable response and point of view. Obviously I differ on some points but that's fine.

I'd just make the point that, while we might not be shelling Moscow now (I'd imagine most of us would be dead before it got to that...including most in Moscow) we certainly have politicians recommending attack on Russia soil.....literally putting everyone in danger.

I'll make the point that it's sad to say that the west have certainly knocked down many many apartment blocks.....We basically flattened cities in Iraq, we have done much worse than Russia in our time....and that's no defence of Russia who don't give a damn either. That's just a recognition that there are no clean hands here.

The excuses and justifications given then are much as what the Russians give now.....if they even cover it at all, it's because....it's a stray missile or part...or it's site that is being used as an ammo site or headquarters or attacks are coming from there....is any of it ever true or an actual justification?...I'm just glad I'm never involved in decisions that kill people.

I remember Blair ok'ed the attack on broadcast journalists in Serbia, killing sixteen if I remember correctly...in that case justifying bombing journalists just becomes another excuse....as saying because some kind of regime work is done by broadcasting its view instead of ours it's ok to kill them.....A view that basically justifies killing any civilian who disagrees.

Your first paragraph is interesting because it brings up the point of why we are here and the actual attitudes of these competing power structures and the point of 'undeclared wars'....and whether they actually have the support of their populations. It illustrates my wider point of the wrong approach to Russia for decades.

Edited by Stirlingsays (29 Apr 2022 5.55pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

[Link]

Russian rouble is doing well. But what about sanctions? LOL. No Russian will be cold come the following winter. No Russian will be hungry come the following winter.

Edited by Matov (29 Apr 2022 7.26pm)

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Agreed.

Russia have low yield nuclear weapons and I can see one of these being used in the Ukraine if Putin wants to keep his gains but feels under pressure. That then has the high potential for starting a chain reaction that ends all of us. I was posting about this weeks ago. As much as invading the Ukraine was an escalation....it's not even in the same ballpark.

With idiots like Truss saying she wants to push Russia out of Ukraine that would be a complete loss for Putin....with this being an existential war for them the potential for utter disaster is being played with like it doesn't actually matter.

Egos could see millions of dead here, which could end up being us as well. None of these idiots seem to want to stop and think about whether playing with fecking existence is worth it.

Edited by Stirlingsays (29 Apr 2022 8.57pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

I agree with your post, the only part I'd differ with is here.

An invasion of Russia would obviously mean nuclear war. That's plain in their descriptions for nuclear usage.

In terms of concern for incremental invasion at a later date. Any peace deal could see this addressed. For example, if Russia reinvaded it could be stated that Poland automatically takes security for Polish heritage parts of Ukraine and effectively at that point you have a Nato/Russia official war.

However, at this point the fruitcakes are effectively doing a limited version of this right now.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Who is going to invade Russia? Ukraine won't. The most it will do is target a few supply chain logistics.

Nato won't. Its sole purpose is defence, and it has no mandate for offensive action.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.