Topic

This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.

The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

Previous Topic | Next Topic

Page 2008 of 2586 < 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 >

Topic Locked

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 02 Sep 19 8.58am
Originally posted by Badger11 I hope your right. One scenario I can see playing out is that Corbyn and co do not call a no confidence motion but instead go for legislation blocking a no deal. They win that vote and Boris then kicks out the rebels but as Corbyn hasn't called a no confidence motion Boris is still saddled with the blocking a no deal law. In that circumstance I can see Boris wanting a GE but to do that he will have to call for a vote of no confidence in his own government. At that point Corbyn and co will have no choice but to vote against a motion of no confidence against the government brought by the government. If Corbyn doesn't vote then I think the Remain voters are entitled to say why not. Many twists and turns to come. Whatever twists and turns Johnson's Machiavellian advisers devise, Parliament will have it's way or our whole system of democracy is under threat. Corbyn is no more the Labour party than Johnson is the Tory party. "Remain" voters are not an issue now. This is a battle for the supremacy of Parliament over the executive. That Parliament is sovereign is a principle established over many centuries and whatever the current issue might be that cannot be compromised. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 02 Sep 19 8.58am

Originally posted by Badger11

I hope your right. One scenario I can see playing out is that Corbyn and co do not call a no confidence motion but instead go for legislation blocking a no deal. They win that vote and Boris then kicks out the rebels but as Corbyn hasn't called a no confidence motion Boris is still saddled with the blocking a no deal law.

In that circumstance I can see Boris wanting a GE but to do that he will have to call for a vote of no confidence in his own government. At that point Corbyn and co will have no choice but to vote against a motion of no confidence against the government brought by the government. If Corbyn doesn't vote then I think the Remain voters are entitled to say why not.

Many twists and turns to come.

Whatever twists and turns Johnson's Machiavellian advisers devise, Parliament will have it's way or our whole system of democracy is under threat.

Corbyn is no more the Labour party than Johnson is the Tory party.

"Remain" voters are not an issue now. This is a battle for the supremacy of Parliament over the executive. That Parliament is sovereign is a principle established over many centuries and whatever the current issue might be that cannot be compromised.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Alert a moderator to this post

Badger11 Beckenham 02 Sep 19 9.08am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Whatever twists and turns Johnson's Machiavellian advisers devise, Parliament will have it's way or our whole system of democracy is under threat. Corbyn is no more the Labour party than Johnson is the Tory party. "Remain" voters are not an issue now. This is a battle for the supremacy of Parliament over the executive. That Parliament is sovereign is a principle established over many centuries and whatever the current issue might be that cannot be compromised. No it's not. This is simple politics if the opposition win the vote they can try and form a government or we have a GE. Our democracy is not under threat. One more point
Alert a moderator to this post

Badger11

Beckenham 02 Sep 19 9.08am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Whatever twists and turns Johnson's Machiavellian advisers devise, Parliament will have it's way or our whole system of democracy is under threat.

Corbyn is no more the Labour party than Johnson is the Tory party.

No it's not. This is simple politics if the opposition win the vote they can try and form a government or we have a GE. Our democracy is not under threat.

One more point

Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 02 Sep 19 9.09am
Originally posted by Badger11 Hammond has said withdrawing the whip is hypocrisy as 8 Cabinet members voted against the government under May. The real scandal was Mrs May allowing her own cabinet members to vote against the government they belonged to. I have never seen that in my lifetime on a major policy. They have either resigned or been sacked it just shows how weak and ineffectual Mrs May was. Boris is only doing what Thatcher or Blair would have done. This is a three line whip you are either with us or against us and if the government falls so be it. I hope Boris sticks to that and if we do have a GE let's make polling date before 31st Oct. Mrs May knew they would vote against the deal so her real choice was to demand their resignation or to sack them. That she decided to do neither but keep them in the camp was a judgement call. This is different. These aren't current Ministers who can be sacked. They are backbench MPs being threatened with expulsion from their party for doing their job, which is to use their conscience in the best interest of their constituents. That is, of course, the right of the Tory Party if they so choose but it is them who would be breaking the conventions and them who would be seriously risking the splintering of their party. Deciding to throw out your majority would make little sense in normal times so this is clearly just politics and not sense. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 02 Sep 19 9.09am

Originally posted by Badger11

Hammond has said withdrawing the whip is hypocrisy as 8 Cabinet members voted against the government under May.

The real scandal was Mrs May allowing her own cabinet members to vote against the government they belonged to. I have never seen that in my lifetime on a major policy. They have either resigned or been sacked it just shows how weak and ineffectual Mrs May was.

Boris is only doing what Thatcher or Blair would have done. This is a three line whip you are either with us or against us and if the government falls so be it.

I hope Boris sticks to that and if we do have a GE let's make polling date before 31st Oct.

Mrs May knew they would vote against the deal so her real choice was to demand their resignation or to sack them. That she decided to do neither but keep them in the camp was a judgement call.

This is different. These aren't current Ministers who can be sacked. They are backbench MPs being threatened with expulsion from their party for doing their job, which is to use their conscience in the best interest of their constituents.

That is, of course, the right of the Tory Party if they so choose but it is them who would be breaking the conventions and them who would be seriously risking the splintering of their party. Deciding to throw out your majority would make little sense in normal times so this is clearly just politics and not sense.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 02 Sep 19 9.48am
Originally posted by Badger11 No it's not. This is simple politics if the opposition win the vote they can try and form a government or we have a GE. Our democracy is not under threat. I trust you would acknowledge that it is the will of the current Parliament that they do not want us to leave the EU without first agreeing a "deal". That being so any political shenanigans from the executive to block Parliament from expressing that will threatens our democracy. Seeking to create scapegoats from the likes of the EU negotiators, Tory rebels or Corbyn are disingenuous attempts to shift the focus. Tactics copied from Trump! Parliament must, and I am sure will, unite to counter these threats and do whatever is necessary to ensure that their sovereignty remains intact. The honourable, and constitutionally correct, course of action is for the Government to accept Parliament's instructions, call for a further extension and then go to the country with a specific proposal that if returned they will exit without a deal. That they don't want to do that is largely because of the shadow of Farage looming over them. Which is where it all started. That man has a lot to answer for! For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 02 Sep 19 9.48am

Originally posted by Badger11

No it's not. This is simple politics if the opposition win the vote they can try and form a government or we have a GE. Our democracy is not under threat.

I trust you would acknowledge that it is the will of the current Parliament that they do not want us to leave the EU without first agreeing a "deal".

That being so any political shenanigans from the executive to block Parliament from expressing that will threatens our democracy. Seeking to create scapegoats from the likes of the EU negotiators, Tory rebels or Corbyn are disingenuous attempts to shift the focus. Tactics copied from Trump!

Parliament must, and I am sure will, unite to counter these threats and do whatever is necessary to ensure that their sovereignty remains intact.

The honourable, and constitutionally correct, course of action is for the Government to accept Parliament's instructions, call for a further extension and then go to the country with a specific proposal that if returned they will exit without a deal. That they don't want to do that is largely because of the shadow of Farage looming over them. Which is where it all started. That man has a lot to answer for!

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Alert a moderator to this post

Rudi Hedman Caterham 02 Sep 19 10.12am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Whatever twists and turns Johnson's Machiavellian advisers devise, Parliament will have it's way or our whole system of democracy is under threat. Corbyn is no more the Labour party than Johnson is the Tory party. "Remain" voters are not an issue now. This is a battle for the supremacy of Parliament over the executive. That Parliament is sovereign is a principle established over many centuries and whatever the current issue might be that cannot be compromised. You have just 1 week left. COYP
Alert a moderator to this post

Rudi Hedman

Caterham 02 Sep 19 10.12am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Whatever twists and turns Johnson's Machiavellian advisers devise, Parliament will have it's way or our whole system of democracy is under threat.

Corbyn is no more the Labour party than Johnson is the Tory party.

You have just 1 week left.

COYP

Alert a moderator to this post

chris123 hove actually 02 Sep 19 10.21am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle I trust you would acknowledge that it is the will of the current Parliament that they do not want us to leave the EU without first agreeing a "deal". That being so any political shenanigans from the executive to block Parliament from expressing that will threatens our democracy. Seeking to create scapegoats from the likes of the EU negotiators, Tory rebels or Corbyn are disingenuous attempts to shift the focus. Tactics copied from Trump! Parliament must, and I am sure will, unite to counter these threats and do whatever is necessary to ensure that their sovereignty remains intact. The honourable, and constitutionally correct, course of action is for the Government to accept Parliament's instructions, call for a further extension and then go to the country with a specific proposal that if returned they will exit without a deal. That they don't want to do that is largely because of the shadow of Farage looming over them. Which is where it all started. That man has a lot to answer for! Parliament has demonstrated that it is unable to agree on a deal and voted one down three times already.
Alert a moderator to this post

chris123

hove actually 02 Sep 19 10.21am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I trust you would acknowledge that it is the will of the current Parliament that they do not want us to leave the EU without first agreeing a "deal".

Parliament must, and I am sure will, unite to counter these threats and do whatever is necessary to ensure that their sovereignty remains intact.

Parliament has demonstrated that it is unable to agree on a deal and voted one down three times already.

Alert a moderator to this post

Matov 02 Sep 19 10.27am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle "Remain" voters are not an issue now. This is a battle for the supremacy of Parliament over the executive. That Parliament is sovereign is a principle established over many centuries and whatever the current issue might be that cannot be compromised. Nonsense. This boils down to a very simple issue. You either believe the vote of June 23rd needs to be honoured or you do not. If the campaign for a second vote was based on an assumption that the people deserved a second vote on the type of leave then I might, incredibly grudgingly, concede that it was an idea worthy of debate. But that is not what you want. You want either a revocation of A50 or a 'peoples' vote that pitches Mays utterly useless 'deal' against another chance to Remain. And that is utterly fraudulent and an affront to every principle of democracy. On June 23rd 2016 Remain lost. Leave won. And until that basic fact is accepted by our Parliament and a noisy percentage of Remainers then nothing else matters. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
Alert a moderator to this post

Matov

02 Sep 19 10.27am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Nonsense. This boils down to a very simple issue. You either believe the vote of June 23rd needs to be honoured or you do not.

If the campaign for a second vote was based on an assumption that the people deserved a second vote on the type of leave then I might, incredibly grudgingly, concede that it was an idea worthy of debate. But that is not what you want. You want either a revocation of A50 or a 'peoples' vote that pitches Mays utterly useless 'deal' against another chance to Remain.

And that is utterly fraudulent and an affront to every principle of democracy. On June 23rd 2016 Remain lost. Leave won. And until that basic fact is accepted by our Parliament and a noisy percentage of Remainers then nothing else matters.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Alert a moderator to this post

Badger11 Beckenham 02 Sep 19 10.38am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle I trust you would acknowledge that it is the will of the current Parliament that they do not want us to leave the EU without first agreeing a "deal". That being so any political shenanigans from the executive to block Parliament from expressing that will threatens our democracy. Seeking to create scapegoats from the likes of the EU negotiators, Tory rebels or Corbyn are disingenuous attempts to shift the focus. Tactics copied from Trump! Parliament must, and I am sure will, unite to counter these threats and do whatever is necessary to ensure that their sovereignty remains intact. The honourable, and constitutionally correct, course of action is for the Government to accept Parliament's instructions, call for a further extension and then go to the country with a specific proposal that if returned they will exit without a deal. That they don't want to do that is largely because of the shadow of Farage looming over them. Which is where it all started. That man has a lot to answer for! That is up to a vote until it happens I don't know and neither do you. I trust you will agree that if Corbyn fails to get the votes for whichever motion he is going for that the will of parliament has been heard and we can leave without a deal. I am touched that you are so concerned about the sovereignty of Parliament as many leavers will point out that is why we want to leave the EU. You are making too much of the current situation our democracy is not under threat (yet). Governments are entitled to set the timetable and opposition are entitled to oppose the timetable and the bills. I accept that Johnson has picked a timetable that favours his government but then Corbyn is planning to do the same thing with the opposition and set his timetable. Both sides are playing politics. Right now my preference is for a GE before 31 Oct if we get that hopefully the losers will stop complaining. One more point
Alert a moderator to this post

Badger11

Beckenham 02 Sep 19 10.38am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I trust you would acknowledge that it is the will of the current Parliament that they do not want us to leave the EU without first agreeing a "deal".

Parliament must, and I am sure will, unite to counter these threats and do whatever is necessary to ensure that their sovereignty remains intact.

That is up to a vote until it happens I don't know and neither do you. I trust you will agree that if Corbyn fails to get the votes for whichever motion he is going for that the will of parliament has been heard and we can leave without a deal.

I am touched that you are so concerned about the sovereignty of Parliament as many leavers will point out that is why we want to leave the EU.

You are making too much of the current situation our democracy is not under threat (yet).

Governments are entitled to set the timetable and opposition are entitled to oppose the timetable and the bills. I accept that Johnson has picked a timetable that favours his government but then Corbyn is planning to do the same thing with the opposition and set his timetable.

Both sides are playing politics. Right now my preference is for a GE before 31 Oct if we get that hopefully the losers will stop complaining.

One more point

Alert a moderator to this post

Badger11 Beckenham 02 Sep 19 11.28am
Tony Blair has just told the Labour party not to fall for the trap of calling for a GE. Damn he's onto us lads he's rumbled our sneaky and devious plan which the rest of us call democracy. Hopefully the Labour Party will continue to ignore him. Something most happen after you have been PM both him and John Major talk nonsense these days. One more point
Alert a moderator to this post

Badger11

Beckenham 02 Sep 19 11.28am

Tony Blair has just told the Labour party not to fall for the trap of calling for a GE.

Damn he's onto us lads he's rumbled our sneaky and devious plan which the rest of us call democracy. Hopefully the Labour Party will continue to ignore him.

Something most happen after you have been PM both him and John Major talk nonsense these days.

One more point

Alert a moderator to this post

Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 02 Sep 19 11.32am
Originally posted by chris123 Parliament has demonstrated that it is unable to agree on a deal and voted one down three times already. In terms of the Conservative membership, a poll has revealed that nearly half would find unacceptable a deal which deleted the backstop but retained rest of the Withdrawal Agreement. Some 63% would find unacceptable a deal which would have a time limited backstop but retained the rest of the Withdrawal Agreement.
Alert a moderator to this post

Willo

South coast - west of Brighton. 02 Sep 19 11.32am

Originally posted by chris123

Parliament has demonstrated that it is unable to agree on a deal and voted one down three times already.

In terms of the Conservative membership, a poll has revealed that nearly half would find unacceptable a deal which deleted the backstop but retained rest of the Withdrawal Agreement.

Some 63% would find unacceptable a deal which would have a time limited backstop but retained the rest of the Withdrawal Agreement.

Alert a moderator to this post

W12 02 Sep 19 12.40pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle I trust you would acknowledge that it is the will of the current Parliament that they do not want us to leave the EU without first agreeing a "deal". No, they clearly do not want to leave the EU and want to revoke A50. They are not even hiding the fact. That being so any political shenanigans from the executive to block Parliament from expressing that will threatens our democracy. Seeking to create scapegoats from the likes of the EU negotiators, Tory rebels or Corbyn are disingenuous attempts to shift the focus. Tactics copied from Trump! They have not blocked parliament although I wish they had. They could have prorogued the entire period but didn't. This still gives time for more "shenanigans" on top of the 3 years they have had to resolve this but they never wanted to. Parliament must, and I am sure will, unite to counter these threats and do whatever is necessary to ensure that their sovereignty remains intact. If you mean Bercow and all his cronies "shenanigans" then yes they will stop at nothing because they simply look down on the electorate as simpletons but deep down know that the people who voted leave will ultimately profit from this. Again, something that they are not even hiding now. The honourable, and constitutionally correct, course of action is for the Government to accept Parliament's instructions, call for a further extension and then go to the country with a specific proposal that if returned they will exit without a deal. That they don't want to do that is largely because of the shadow of Farage looming over them. Which is where it all started. That man has a lot to answer for! Wow you are deluded if you think a further delay is either honorable or will result in less division in this country. No amount of "peoples votes" or "governments of national unity" or whatever **ing spin you put on ignoring a democratic vote is going to change anything now. We either withdraw without a deal and get on with our lives or (as I suspect will happen) Boris puts liptstick on the WA and gets it through parliament and we go down a road of further division, delay and probably escalating civil unrest. Though it's difficult to know where remainers can go now with the rhetoric now that everyone is a nazi/fascist who doesn't agree with them although we've already had one person suggest that leavers should be gassed. It's the politicians, institutions and mainstream media who have a lot to answer for.** Edited by W12 (02 Sep 2019 12.41pm)
Alert a moderator to this post

W12 02 Sep 19 12.40pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I trust you would acknowledge that it is the will of the current Parliament that they do not want us to leave the EU without first agreeing a "deal".

No, they clearly do not want to leave the EU and want to revoke A50. They are not even hiding the fact.

They have not blocked parliament although I wish they had. They could have prorogued the entire period but didn't. This still gives time for more "shenanigans" on top of the 3 years they have had to resolve this but they never wanted to.

Parliament must, and I am sure will, unite to counter these threats and do whatever is necessary to ensure that their sovereignty remains intact.

If you mean Bercow and all his cronies "shenanigans" then yes they will stop at nothing because they simply look down on the electorate as simpletons but deep down know that the people who voted leave will ultimately profit from this. Again, something that they are not even hiding now.

Wow you are deluded if you think a further delay is either honorable or will result in less division in this country. No amount of "peoples votes" or "governments of national unity" or whatever ****ing spin you put on ignoring a democratic vote is going to change anything now.

We either withdraw without a deal and get on with our lives or (as I suspect will happen) Boris puts liptstick on the WA and gets it through parliament and we go down a road of further division, delay and probably escalating civil unrest.

Though it's difficult to know where remainers can go now with the rhetoric now that everyone is a nazi/fascist who doesn't agree with them although we've already had one person suggest that leavers should be gassed.

It's the politicians, institutions and mainstream media who have a lot to answer for.

Edited by W12 (02 Sep 2019 12.41pm)

Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 02 Sep 19 1.29pm
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman You have just 1 week left. Not at all. Parliament will always find the way to demonstrate it's control over the executive, no matter how long it takes, which could be years. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 02 Sep 19 1.29pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

You have just 1 week left.

Not at all.

Parliament will always find the way to demonstrate it's control over the executive, no matter how long it takes, which could be years.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Alert a moderator to this post

Topic Locked

Page 2008 of 2586 < 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 >

Previous Topic | Next Topic

Crystal Palace FC Supporters' Website - The Holmesdale Online

The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

Site Map

New users

Existing users

Sponsors