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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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 Rudi Hedman  Caterham 24 Feb 16 10.40am |
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1,000 new jobs announced after the referendum date announced. Aston Martin are going to open 2 new car assembly plants in Wales. 750 jobs in 1 and 250 in the other to build the new Aston DBX crossover 4 seater. Although it looks quite horrible IMO on the inside they'll probably sell loads of these being 4 seater. They had the opportunity to set up anywhere in the world and chose Wales (Britain for the purposes of this subject) because of the skilled workforce and the timing issues they face. All they would comment on the EU was that they benefit from free trade and economic stability. Aston's EU exports are just 20% but it's still enough to tip a company into trouble if there was danger to that 20%, same as EU country exports to us at amount to 10% of their total. The only question is, is there anyone in parliament with the negotiating skills and not a gutless acceptance of the status quo. Edited by Rudi Hedman (24 Feb 2016 10.42am)
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 24 Feb 16 10.50am |
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Originally posted by chris123
They all to a greater or lesser extent diminish from our own domestic governance. By exiting we can repatriate our law making to our own legislature and not be exposed to any law making that is not in our own domestic interest. Edited by chris123 (24 Feb 2016 10.15am) Problem is that domestic governance should always be limited, and having an arbitrator body that's independent usually facilitates this better than a body that is subject to the influence of the governing state. Its also important to remember that all of these bodies also contain democratically elected or individuals appointed by member states to represent their interests in these matters. Granted they may not represent the government, but the MEPs are elected in arguably a far more democratic method than the UK has for government. The perception presented that some how the EU steals British Sovereignty is something of a strawman argument, given that we are democratically represented within those organisations. Even the European Court, where we have exactly the same representation as every other member. One of the problems of the sovereignty arguments is that essentially the out campaign really want to be the dominant power in the EU and make it do what they want, rather than a partner. Which is of course a statement that worries me somewhat, given its anti-democratic.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 24 Feb 16 10.52am |
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In danger of stating the obvious here but Western European countries export quality goods and services to us (apart from Peugeot that look good but break after 3 years or Renaults). What do Eastern European countries export to Britain? People? Cheap Vodka? Tinned Plum Tomatoes? Where does the 10% of total EU exports to the UK come from? And herein lies the areas to bargain/problem of Eastern European countries opposing the exit side's wishes and where it all started to become more than what people thought it was originally going to be.
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| the_mcanuff_stuff Caterham 24 Feb 16 10.58am |
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Tackling the important points:
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| chris123 hove actually 24 Feb 16 10.58am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Problem is that domestic governance should always be limited, and having an arbitrator body that's independent usually facilitates this better than a body that is subject to the influence of the governing state. Its also important to remember that all of these bodies also contain democratically elected or individuals appointed by member states to represent their interests in these matters. Granted they may not represent the government, but the MEPs are elected in arguably a far more democratic method than the UK has for government. The perception presented that some how the EU steals British Sovereignty is something of a strawman argument, given that we are democratically represented within those organisations. Even the European Court, where we have exactly the same representation as every other member. One of the problems of the sovereignty arguments is that essentially the out campaign really want to be the dominant power in the EU and make it do what they want, rather than a partner. Which is of course a statement that worries me somewhat, given its anti-democratic. Er democratically elected individuals who quite reasonably will act in their own interests. It's the environment that's wrong and having representation within a European body is not the same as repatriating that decision making.
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 24 Feb 16 11.00am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Problem is that domestic governance should always be limited, and having an arbitrator body that's independent usually facilitates this better than a body that is subject to the influence of the governing state. Its also important to remember that all of these bodies also contain democratically elected or individuals appointed by member states to represent their interests in these matters. Granted they may not represent the government, but the MEPs are elected in arguably a far more democratic method than the UK has for government. One of the problems of the sovereignty arguments is that essentially the out campaign really want to be the dominant power in the EU and make it do what they want, rather than a partner. Which is of course a statement that worries me somewhat, given its anti-democratic.
Make it do what we want? What like decide how we run our own country from within and negotiate fair trading deals where we are not taxed on exports or imports which incidentally we and they know can happen vice versa.
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| since1953 Maidenhead 24 Feb 16 11.02am |
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The truth is that the issue is on a knife edge.Some are happy to move towards a federal Europe, whereas others believe that we did not sign up to this and that we have been drawn into federalism inch by inch.Most agree that the Common Market aspect of the EU is welcomed, but this referendum is a line drawn in the sand where we take stock of where we are and where we go from here.
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Kermit8  Hevon 24 Feb 16 11.11am |
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Well-known Trotskyite and commie Brendan O'Neill argues the case for leaving using, confusingly, 'Love democracy?' as his persuasive headline. Can't remember a time when the more extreme left got into bed with the more extreme right about anything since Adolf and Josef had a pre-war cuppa. This has just re-enforced my 'in'.
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| the_mcanuff_stuff Caterham 24 Feb 16 11.11am |
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Originally posted by chris123
They all to a greater or lesser extent diminish from our own domestic governance. By exiting we can repatriate our law making to our own legislature and not be exposed to any law making that is not in our own domestic interest.
I'm well aware of the current set up. What I want to know is, will we seek to remain as part of the EEA (for example) or completely do away with it. Like I said in my original post I want to know what Brexit will look like in practice, should we decide to leave. What is being proposed? Is the alternative better? If it is, we need to know what that looks like. And right now we don't because the "leave" campaign seems undecided. If they got in line and said "we will leave the EU and seek membership of the EEA", or even if not, at least it would be a clear indication what really is going to happen on "Brexit" Right now it is unclear and much too wishy-washy. I will predict right here and now, if there is no coherent plan put out by the "leave" campaign for the event of Brexit, it will fail. I'm 100% certain of that. People can not be expected to back something if they don't know what it entails. It is far too an important issue to vote on emotionally and say "let's leave and see what happens". That will never in a month of Sundays get the support that is required to win the referendum.
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| dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 24 Feb 16 11.21am |
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We arethe strongest economy in the Eurozone, not because we are in it, but because we hold it all togther, if we go Germany and France will be left holding the baby, and we all know how well they get along. Lets just pack it in, and consign the whole Europen ideaoligical utopian fantasy to the history books, it was a good idea (on paper), which is where it should have stayed. I have heard a sneaky one that Prauge is serioulsy rethinking it's inclusion in the whole fiasco. if this vote went to the public today, we'd be out of Europe as soon as they could count the votes. Edited by dannyh (24 Feb 2016 11.23am)
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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| dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 24 Feb 16 11.26am |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
Well-known Trotskyite and commie Brendan O'Neill argues the case for leaving using, confusingly, 'Love democracy?' as his persuasive headline. Can't remember a time when the more extreme left got into bed with the more extreme right about anything since Adolf and Josef had a pre-war cuppa. This has just re-enforced my 'in'. But didn't you go on and on about the land of the haggis becoming independant
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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| Kermit8 Hevon 24 Feb 16 11.29am |
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Originally posted by dannyh
But didn't you go on and on about the land of the haggis becoming independant No. That was Sean Connery. I wasn't really bothered either way tbh.
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