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grump Milford On Sea 14 Jul 15 8.48pm | |
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I'm sorry but any American who demands the banning of the Confederate battle flag because they claim it is a symbol of racism is a hypocrite. What about the slaughter of the Native American Indian, the theft of their land. Appalling acts against humanity only equalled by the Nazi's treatment of the Jews. Which flag represented these white Americans who were just as racist as those flying the confederate flag ? Why is there no call to have it banned ? Let's not pretend any part of the U.S.A. doesn't have a history of racism.
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twist Miami, Florida 14 Jul 15 9.09pm | |
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Stop with calling the confederate flag racist. Do your research. Its not even the official flag of the confederate states. Its the West Virginia battle flag. The ONLY reason its considered racist is because the KKK picked it up in the 50's and used it as their flag. If the KKK picked up the union jack tomorrow and started calling it their official flag, does that mean we are all racists Brits for flying the Jack ? What about the Swastika ? For thousands of years was a symbol of auspiciousness, yet taken up by the Nazi's and now its an evil symbol ? I dont believe states should be flying the flag on their property, but i do believe in the rights of citizens to fly it.
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Jimenez SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 14 Jul 15 9.20pm | |
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Quote twist at 14 Jul 2015 9.09pm
Stop with calling the confederate flag racist. Do your research. Its not even the official flag of the confederate states. Its the West Virginia battle flag. The ONLY reason its considered racist is because the KKK picked it up in the 50's and used it as their flag. If the KKK picked up the union jack tomorrow and started calling it their official flag, does that mean we are all racists Brits for flying the Jack ? What about the Swastika ? For thousands of years was a symbol of auspiciousness, yet taken up by the Nazi's and now its an evil symbol ? I dont believe states should be flying the flag on their property, but i do believe in the rights of citizens to fly it.
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Aray South London 14 Jul 15 10.19pm | |
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Reading this thread- belatedly for the most part - does worry me. I hope those that defend so vehemently a symbol of race hatred only do so because of their ignorance of its misuse since the 50s. That misuse cannot be ignored and should never be knowingly linked to a club like Palace. Leave that to Millwall or Chelsea.
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kenbarr Jackson Heights, Queens, New York ... 14 Jul 15 11.01pm | |
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Quote twist at 14 Jul 2015 9.09pm
Stop with calling the confederate flag racist. Do your research. Its not even the official flag of the confederate states. Its the West Virginia battle flag. The ONLY reason its considered racist is because the KKK picked it up in the 50's and used it as their flag. If the KKK picked up the union jack tomorrow and started calling it their official flag, does that mean we are all racists Brits for flying the Jack ? What about the Swastika ? For thousands of years was a symbol of auspiciousness, yet taken up by the Nazi's and now its an evil symbol ?
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Glazier#1 14 Jul 15 11.43pm | |
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That's a good post, Kenbar. Good. Cheers
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Jordan555x Bromley 15 Jul 15 12.36am | |
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Quote kenbarr at 14 Jul 2015 6.57am
Quote grump at 14 Jul 2015 6.22am
This is a complex issue, personally I don't see the confederate flag as a symbol of racism, although I can't deny certain racist groups have adopted the flag. To me it is the battle flag of the Confederate army in their fight to separate themselves from the union. In that respect it was the flag of ordinary working people most of whom were as downtrodden as the black slaves being abused by wealthy landowners. To me it represents the way of life of these ordinary working people and the freedom they fought for for themselves, nothing to do with race. If you want to ban flags because they have been adopted by racist groups then we should be banning our own Union flag (Union Jack), as this too has been adopted by racist groups such as the National Front, British National Party, as well as the use of the English national flag by the EDL. I don't believe in banning a flag just because a bunch of nut jobs want to use it for their own ends. US History disagrees. The "peculiar" institution that was African slavery was the root cause of the Civil War. Yes, Northern business interests, particularly New England maritime interests profited greatly from the slave trade until importation was banned. Then inbreeding began. It was the Confederacy that fired the first shots of the war at Fort Sumter and a great deal of documentation has proved that racism was at the foundation of Southern philosophy, such as the "white race is superior to the Negro." Racism is and will always be the original sin of the United States. It was enshrined in the Constitution (slaves were counted as 3/5 a person for census purposes) and it took the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments to partially undo that. 100 years later, the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts were needed to reinforce the Constitutional Amendments passed a century earlier. The Confederate battle flag is seen in this country as fundamentally racist by more and more people. The South Carolina Governor, as Republican as it gets and the South Carolina State Legislature, as staunchly conservative and jealously guarded of their traditions as can be, voted themselves into special session and ordered the battle flag removed in near record time. This wasn't PC run amok. It was the revulsion they felt over the wanton murder of nine more people, including one of their own, due to racist extremism in their own backyard. It was Philadelphia, Mississippi in 1965, when three young civil rights workers were murdered on orders from the KKK to local law enforcement. It was the firebombing of an AME Church in Birmingham, Alabama that killed several black youth worshipping there. Not for one minute do I think consigning that flag to a museum will change much. As far as the Union Flag is concerned, yes there have been some pretty rotten things done in its name. There have been some pretty rotten things done in the name of the Stars and Stripes, most recently the needless invasion of Iraq. There have also been some pretty good things done as well. The only thing the Confederate Battle Flag and the Stars and Bars (the official flag of the Confederacy) represent is a system where some considered themselves superior human beings to others based on their skin color. That is racist to its core and that is what the Confederacy was all about. To anyone who believes themselves to be a superior life form, let me remind them that we all put our trousers on the same way, one leg at a time. Before anyone says I sympathize with the North because I am a New Yorker, I should tell you that no member of my family lived in the United States before 1895 and that my father emigrated from Germany in October 1935, stayed in London for a time and arrived in the US aboard RMS Berengaria in February 1936. That makes me a first generation American on my father's side and third on my mother's. No member of my family had a stake in the United States from the founding of the first colonies until the last five years of the 19th Century. No member of my family was involved in the lead up to the Civil War, the actual war or the events that followed it known as Reconstruction.
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kenbarr Jackson Heights, Queens, New York ... 15 Jul 15 12.42am | |
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Quote Jordan555x at 15 Jul 2015 12.36am
Quote kenbarr at 14 Jul 2015 6.57am
Quote grump at 14 Jul 2015 6.22am
This is a complex issue, personally I don't see the confederate flag as a symbol of racism, although I can't deny certain racist groups have adopted the flag. To me it is the battle flag of the Confederate army in their fight to separate themselves from the union. In that respect it was the flag of ordinary working people most of whom were as downtrodden as the black slaves being abused by wealthy landowners. To me it represents the way of life of these ordinary working people and the freedom they fought for for themselves, nothing to do with race. If you want to ban flags because they have been adopted by racist groups then we should be banning our own Union flag (Union Jack), as this too has been adopted by racist groups such as the National Front, British National Party, as well as the use of the English national flag by the EDL. I don't believe in banning a flag just because a bunch of nut jobs want to use it for their own ends. US History disagrees. The "peculiar" institution that was African slavery was the root cause of the Civil War. Yes, Northern business interests, particularly New England maritime interests profited greatly from the slave trade until importation was banned. Then inbreeding began. It was the Confederacy that fired the first shots of the war at Fort Sumter and a great deal of documentation has proved that racism was at the foundation of Southern philosophy, such as the "white race is superior to the Negro." Racism is and will always be the original sin of the United States. It was enshrined in the Constitution (slaves were counted as 3/5 a person for census purposes) and it took the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments to partially undo that. 100 years later, the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts were needed to reinforce the Constitutional Amendments passed a century earlier. The Confederate battle flag is seen in this country as fundamentally racist by more and more people. The South Carolina Governor, as Republican as it gets and the South Carolina State Legislature, as staunchly conservative and jealously guarded of their traditions as can be, voted themselves into special session and ordered the battle flag removed in near record time. This wasn't PC run amok. It was the revulsion they felt over the wanton murder of nine more people, including one of their own, due to racist extremism in their own backyard. It was Philadelphia, Mississippi in 1965, when three young civil rights workers were murdered on orders from the KKK to local law enforcement. It was the firebombing of an AME Church in Birmingham, Alabama that killed several black youth worshipping there. Not for one minute do I think consigning that flag to a museum will change much. As far as the Union Flag is concerned, yes there have been some pretty rotten things done in its name. There have been some pretty rotten things done in the name of the Stars and Stripes, most recently the needless invasion of Iraq. There have also been some pretty good things done as well. The only thing the Confederate Battle Flag and the Stars and Bars (the official flag of the Confederacy) represent is a system where some considered themselves superior human beings to others based on their skin color. That is racist to its core and that is what the Confederacy was all about. To anyone who believes themselves to be a superior life form, let me remind them that we all put our trousers on the same way, one leg at a time. Before anyone says I sympathize with the North because I am a New Yorker, I should tell you that no member of my family lived in the United States before 1895 and that my father emigrated from Germany in October 1935, stayed in London for a time and arrived in the US aboard RMS Berengaria in February 1936. That makes me a first generation American on my father's side and third on my mother's. No member of my family had a stake in the United States from the founding of the first colonies until the last five years of the 19th Century. No member of my family was involved in the lead up to the Civil War, the actual war or the events that followed it known as Reconstruction.
Yes, and that post is one long one.
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twist Miami, Florida 15 Jul 15 9.08pm | |
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Quote kenbarr at 14 Jul 2015 11.01pm
Quote twist at 14 Jul 2015 9.09pm
Stop with calling the confederate flag racist. Do your research. Its not even the official flag of the confederate states. Its the West Virginia battle flag. The ONLY reason its considered racist is because the KKK picked it up in the 50's and used it as their flag. If the KKK picked up the union jack tomorrow and started calling it their official flag, does that mean we are all racists Brits for flying the Jack ? What about the Swastika ? For thousands of years was a symbol of auspiciousness, yet taken up by the Nazi's and now its an evil symbol ?
The Nazi version is not a mirror image, turned 45 degrees maybe, but not mirror image. As to becoming more sensitive, we are now over sensitive, wanting to at least appear as PC as we can possibly be. Just ask Sir Tim Hunt, how oversensitive we have become.
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kenbarr Jackson Heights, Queens, New York ... 15 Jul 15 11.38pm | |
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Quote twist at 15 Jul 2015 9.08pm
Quote kenbarr at 14 Jul 2015 11.01pm
Quote twist at 14 Jul 2015 9.09pm
Stop with calling the confederate flag racist. Do your research. Its not even the official flag of the confederate states. Its the West Virginia battle flag. The ONLY reason its considered racist is because the KKK picked it up in the 50's and used it as their flag. If the KKK picked up the union jack tomorrow and started calling it their official flag, does that mean we are all racists Brits for flying the Jack ? What about the Swastika ? For thousands of years was a symbol of auspiciousness, yet taken up by the Nazi's and now its an evil symbol ?
The Nazi version is not a mirror image, turned 45 degrees maybe, but not mirror image. As to becoming more sensitive, we are now over sensitive, wanting to at least appear as PC as we can possibly be. Just ask Sir Tim Hunt, how oversensitive we have become. I'll take your point as a quibble depending on which version of the hakenkreutz you are talking about, the angled versus the block. It is supposed to represent the letters NS, for "National Socialiste" Deutsche Arbeiters Partei. See Shirer, "The Rise and Fall of The Third Reich" Simon and Schuster 1960. As far as sensitivity is concerned, the histories of the US & UK countries are quite different when it comes to racism. The United States has a rather violent history in this area, with everything from a policy of manifest destiny forcing indigenous people from their lands and the forced appropriation of land from other peoples and nations to enslavement, government sanctioned murders and terrorism inflicted upon a group of people for no other reason but their appearance. This nation's history is abysmal in this area and needs to be dealt with in a civilized and sensitive manner. Maybe you haven't experienced this but both my ancestors in Germany and my family in the US have. We have seen law enforcement inflict violence on people peaceably assembling for the purpose of petitioning their government for redress of grievances, a Constitutionally guaranteed right. I have personally seen the despair and desolation of the reservation and segregated communities where separate is definitely unequal and in many cases suffering violent discrimination. This is my last post on this thread. I have said all I am going to say. Unlike a different post, which is far less important in the general scheme of things, I will click the unsubscribe button. The issues being discussed here are very personal to me and I wish to maintain my good standing and decorum on HOL.
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mcduh 16 Jul 15 4.25am | |
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The stubbornness displayed by some of the users on here and the BBS when it comes to this totally tasteless flag which had no place in Selhurst and especially on the patchwork flag of a group that is by no means racist (and who rather immediately removed it once the initial stir was made)... is flabbergasting. Any defense of it, whether by justifying individual rights to wave it, or making ridiculous historical arguments about what it stood for then/stands for now, or trying to dilute its tackiness by extending the racism argument to the rest of America/the world/etc.... is so blisteringly misguided. Lordamercy, shaaaadaaaaaap already. It was on its way out of Selhurst, it was on its way out of South Carolina. So big up for that. I know that everyone is bored here in the Months Without Football, but can't you rhetoricians devote your fabulous talents to making pointed points about how Wayne Hennessy has not the ability or mettle to be a Palace #1? Anything but trying to tell the world that the Confederate flag isn't an obsolete demonstration of shattered racist pride.
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blanksight Thornton heath 16 Jul 15 4.38am | |
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My take on this (more like a summary of the thread) A) Waving any flag without knowing it's connotations is silly B) Stopping waving it was a sensible idea C) People have the right to say or display whatever they like, whether it's offensive or not. This does not apply at Selhurst, which is private property and anything you do is seen to represent the club and fanbase D) Some people use the flag as a racist symbol, many don't, and use it as a symbol of the south and rebellion and state power E) Some people are offended by it, many aren't F) Connotations aside, it would be a great flag for Palace G) It's NOTHING like the Swastika One Stephen Fry quote does come to mind in relation to the posts of many users: “It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f***ing what."
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