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U21 starting in first team

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MrRobbo Flag Chaldon 22 Jan 24 1.59pm Send a Private Message to MrRobbo Add MrRobbo as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

When you look at our performances in the U21 league over the past couple of seasons, this doesn't stack up at all.

To be the only club to fail to start an U21 player would suggest we're producing uniquely bad prospects compared with our peers, but the results at academy level suggest the complete opposite is true.

Academy results can be pretty misleading. Whenever we beat a BIG team e.g. City in December, everyone assumes our fids are better then theirs. Problem being City have 6 kids out on loan all our best kids are still playing U21s. City are also bottom of the table - which obviously isn't indicative of hte level of talent at the club.

But also, lets be honest, in the last couple of months we've also lost to Boro, Birmingham, Stevenage, Ipswich, AFC. All clubs you'd assume to have far weaker resources than ourselves.

I'm definitely not an expert on the academy, but my gut feeling is that its OK, but no better than that.

 

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MrRobbo Flag Chaldon 22 Jan 24 2.03pm Send a Private Message to MrRobbo Add MrRobbo as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

Similar To Rak-Sakyi then, who's been rewarded for his impressive loan with 0 starts and a total of 136 minutes in the league, despite the main contender for his position being injured for the first 2 months of the season.

He's been injured since November, but I agree. IMO he should have had the first half of the seasons out on loan at a Championship club.

I'll keep beating hte drum, but it all stinks of not having a plan. Instead of half a season out on loan, he's got 130 minutes. Not helpful for him, and not helpful for us.

 

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MrRobbo Flag Chaldon 22 Jan 24 2.12pm Send a Private Message to MrRobbo Add MrRobbo as a friend

Originally posted by doombear

AS you say both Eze and Olise had reasonable Championship experience and but they still needed a fair amount of time with us before they became regular starters.

I agree with you regarding Franca. He should have been loaned out.

As for Ozoh, I don't think it would take many games for him to show he can contribute more than either Hughes or Schlupp. He was good when he came on at the Etihad for the last hour of that game and there aren't many tougher places for your PL baptism than there (yes I know he'd had a few minutes as a sub previously) but he was solid in Manchester. IMHO, neither Hughes nor Schlupp are good enough and I don't see playing Ozoh instead of one of them would weaken our first XI.

Edited by doombear (22 Jan 2024 11.51am)

Yep 100% agree on Eze and Olise. But at least they both had a decent amount of men's football under their belt.

And find it hard to disagree on Ozoh too. Its why its so frustrating when he's not given the chance to start in the cup.

Its why I feel that we are currently devoid of any plan. Ozoh has played 112 mins of prem footie so far. WTF is the point.

I want DF going to Roy at the start of the summer, saying "Darren (Powell) reckons Ozoh is the boll0cks. You've got CD, Jairo, Hughes, Jeff, EE, and Lerma....if Ozoh isnt going to get any minutes I'm going to find a loan for him"

There is no active management of these guys careers.

 

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EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 22 Jan 24 2.15pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by MrRobbo

Academy results can be pretty misleading. Whenever we beat a BIG team e.g. City in December, everyone assumes our fids are better then theirs. Problem being City have 6 kids out on loan all our best kids are still playing U21s. City are also bottom of the table - which obviously isn't indicative of hte level of talent at the club.

But also, lets be honest, in the last couple of months we've also lost to Boro, Birmingham, Stevenage, Ipswich, AFC. All clubs you'd assume to have far weaker resources than ourselves.

I'm definitely not an expert on the academy, but my gut feeling is that its OK, but no better than that.

But as I said, that explanation only really makes sense if we're uniquely bad amongst PL sides, which I think is nearly impossible to argue - at a point it's simply about how willing someone is to give out opportunities.

I'm not suggesting we're the best academy and our U21s are all superstars, but there is literally nothing to suggest we have the worst batch of the whole division - even if it's just ok, so are most other teams, and they find pathways for the decent ones.

 

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EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 22 Jan 24 2.18pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by MrRobbo

He's been injured since November, but I agree. IMO he should have had the first half of the seasons out on loan at a Championship club.

I'll keep beating hte drum, but it all stinks of not having a plan. Instead of half a season out on loan, he's got 130 minutes. Not helpful for him, and not helpful for us.

So Bradley has a great season in League One and makes his way into the Liverpool starting XI when the first choice RB is injured, but Rak-Sakyi who also had a great season in League One hasn't made his way into a much inferior starting XI, even when the first choice for his position is injured.

I find it really hard to accept the difference is in the quality of the player - the difference is in how willing the manager is to give them a chance.

 

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eagleman13 Flag On The Road To Hell & Alicante 22 Jan 24 2.20pm Send a Private Message to eagleman13 Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add eagleman13 as a friend

Originally posted by MrRobbo

Academy results can be pretty misleading. Whenever we beat a BIG team e.g. City in December, everyone assumes our fids are better then theirs. Problem being City have 6 kids out on loan all our best kids are still playing U21s. City are also bottom of the table - which obviously isn't indicative of hte level of talent at the club.

But also, lets be honest, in the last couple of months we've also lost to Boro, Birmingham, Stevenage, Ipswich, AFC. All clubs you'd assume to have far weaker resources than ourselves.

I'm definitely not an expert on the academy, but my gut feeling is that its OK, but no better than that.

Sorry MrR, gotta take issue with you about the bit in red.

Boro, won away, lost at home.
B'ham won away.
Stevenage Div 1 1st team players.
Ipswich lost at home(give you that one).
AFC Div 2 1st team players.

Dont forget they have also progressed in the 'International Cup' by beating Benfica, drawing with Feyenoord, beating Monaco & drawing with Athletic Bilbao.

Bearing in mind the U21's also have players out on loan & by all accounts a couple more will be also going out on loan in the next week.

 


This operation, will make the 'Charge Of The Light Brigade' seem like a simple military exercise.

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MrRobbo Flag Chaldon 22 Jan 24 2.24pm Send a Private Message to MrRobbo Add MrRobbo as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

But as I said, that explanation only really makes sense if we're uniquely bad amongst PL sides, which I think is nearly impossible to argue - at a point it's simply about how willing someone is to give out opportunities.

I'm not suggesting we're the best academy and our U21s are all superstars, but there is literally nothing to suggest we have the worst batch of the whole division - even if it's just ok, so are most other teams, and they find pathways for the decent ones.

Yeah I don't think we have the worst batch. by any means.

But we probably are in and around where we currently are in the league, 15th. Whilst noting that the big clubs have some serious talent out on loan.

 

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Goal Machine Flag The Cronx 22 Jan 24 2.25pm Send a Private Message to Goal Machine Add Goal Machine as a friend

There's always so much chat about not playing the kids. Fans, the board and presumably the manager all want the academy graduates to progress to first team regulars, but the simple fact is they're not currently ready.

We have the worlds most experienced manager at the club who watches them train daily, what makes any fan think they have more knowledge on this subject than Roy Hodgson? If they're good enough, they'll play. Why wouldn't they?

From what we've seen, Ozoh looks like he'll develop into a first team player, but you wouldn't throw him into the starting 11 ahead of experienced pro's like Hughes or Schlupp given our precarious league position.

Franca had a decent cameo against City but has otherwise looked lightweight and out of his depth and Rak-Saki has looked much the same.

Anyone who went to the U21's final Vs PSV Eindhoven at the end of last season would have seen that none of the players were anywhere near Premier League level.

As others have said, academy players showing potential should be shipped out on loan to experience the intensity and pressure of first team professional football. In reality, as a minimum, they need to be performing consistently well in the Championship for at least 6 months before they should be considered first team squad players at Palace.

If we are comfortably away from relegation with 5 games to go, that's the time to give the likes of Ozoh, Franca and perhaps Rak-Saki more game time.

 

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MrRobbo Flag Chaldon 22 Jan 24 2.27pm Send a Private Message to MrRobbo Add MrRobbo as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

So Bradley has a great season in League One and makes his way into the Liverpool starting XI when the first choice RB is injured, but Rak-Sakyi who also had a great season in League One hasn't made his way into a much inferior starting XI, even when the first choice for his position is injured.

I find it really hard to accept the difference is in the quality of the player - the difference is in how willing the manager is to give them a chance.

Couldn't agree more. I guess my stance on its a a bit more business like.

e.g. I want the kids to be given a chance, of course I do. But if they are not going to be, which its clear they aren't, get them out playing games so they come back in Jan/summer.


 

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EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 22 Jan 24 2.30pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by Goal Machine

There's always so much chat about not playing the kids. Fans, the board and presumably the manager all want the academy graduates to progress to first team regulars, but the simple fact is they're not currently ready.

We have the worlds most experienced manager at the club who watches them train daily, what makes any fan think they have more knowledge on this subject than Roy Hodgson? If they're good enough, they'll play. Why wouldn't they?

From what we've seen, Ozoh looks like he'll develop into a first team player, but you wouldn't throw him into the starting 11 ahead of experienced pro's like Hughes or Schlupp given our precarious league position.

Franca had a decent cameo against City but has otherwise looked lightweight and out of his depth and Rak-Saki has looked much the same.

Anyone who went to the U21's final Vs PSV Eindhoven at the end of last season would have seen that none of the players were anywhere near Premier League level.

As others have said, academy players showing potential should be shipped out on loan to experience the intensity and pressure of first team professional football. In reality, as a minimum, they need to be performing consistently well in the Championship for at least 6 months before they should be considered first team squad players at Palace.

If we are comfortably away from relegation with 5 games to go, that's the time to give the likes of Ozoh, Franca and perhaps Rak-Saki more game time.

Honestly I just find this take lazy - by extension, none of us can have a view on any tactics, team selections, substitutions, transfers or anything football related, because Roy knows best on all of them.


 

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southnorwoodhill Flag 22 Jan 24 2.30pm Send a Private Message to southnorwoodhill Add southnorwoodhill as a friend

Parish doesn't know his arse from his elbow.
At one point he's championing the academy and stating forthrightly how it will be the future, and yet and the same time backs a manager who doesn't believe or trust in youth. If ever there was a season to give the youth players some game time it was this, instead we see senior players in positions they have no ability for. It must be dispiriting for those youth players who look able to make the breakthrough to see some total chump make a mockery of a role while the naturally adept youth player is sat on the bench.
What a shambles.

 

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EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 22 Jan 24 2.32pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by MrRobbo

Couldn't agree more. I guess my stance on its a a bit more business like.

e.g. I want the kids to be given a chance, of course I do. But if they are not going to be, which its clear they aren't, get them out playing games so they come back in Jan/summer.


Yeah, definitely agree re the lack of planning - we have a really poor structure for developing promising academy players into professional players.

I just disagreed with the bit about a lack of U21 players knocking on the door - I think we have 2 or 3 there who another manager would've at least given an opportunity to by now.

 

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