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 ambrose7  Croydon 12 Jan 24 4.15pm |
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As Rak-Sakyi did, lighting up League 1 at the age of 20 is probably the lowest acceptable performance for a player who could have a lengthy Premier League career. If you're in/out of a mid-table League 1 side at the age of 21+, we may as well be moving that player on. At best they could be a bit part player for us but nothing to get excited about. When he was Ola-Adebomi's current age, Olise had been bought by Palace - he had already done it in the Championship. Marc Guehi was in a 40 game season at Swansea in the top 6. Doesn't appear to be anything special in this 19-21 group and Ozoh seems to be the genuine prospect in the 17-19 group. Maybe Derry or Marsh could come through, but they need to have a big 18 months from now.
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| doombear Too far from Selhurst Park 12 Jan 24 4.35pm |
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Originally posted by ambrose7
As Rak-Sakyi did, lighting up League 1 at the age of 20 is probably the lowest acceptable performance for a player who could have a lengthy Premier League career. If you're in/out of a mid-table League 1 side at the age of 21+, we may as well be moving that player on. At best they could be a bit part player for us but nothing to get excited about. When he was Ola-Adebomi's current age, Olise had been bought by Palace - he had already done it in the Championship. Marc Guehi was in a 40 game season at Swansea in the top 6. Doesn't appear to be anything special in this 19-21 group and Ozoh seems to be the genuine prospect in the 17-19 group. Maybe Derry or Marsh could come through, but they need to have a big 18 months from now. Fully agree. Basically we have Ozoh and JRS as possible PL players for us. The only other possibility is Malachi Boateng but that depends on the extent of the gulf between the Scottish and English top leagues. There clearly is one but as he'has been a regular starter we should give him the benefit of th doubt until he shows otherwise in pre-season.
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| palace99 New Mills 12 Jan 24 4.45pm |
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Originally posted by ambrose7
As Rak-Sakyi did, lighting up League 1 at the age of 20 is probably the lowest acceptable performance for a player who could have a lengthy Premier League career. If you're in/out of a mid-table League 1 side at the age of 21+, we may as well be moving that player on. At best they could be a bit part player for us but nothing to get excited about. When he was Ola-Adebomi's current age, Olise had been bought by Palace - he had already done it in the Championship. Marc Guehi was in a 40 game season at Swansea in the top 6. Doesn't appear to be anything special in this 19-21 group and Ozoh seems to be the genuine prospect in the 17-19 group. Maybe Derry or Marsh could come through, but they need to have a big 18 months from now. the only thing i would add to that is that some players clearly develop later than others, so we shouldn't be writing everyone off just because they haven't played 50 leagues games by 21. Gareth Southgate only became a regular at 22 and ended up getting over 50 caps for England. Others such as Rooney and Ferguson at BHA were physically grown men at 16, whereas say JRS still has some way to go. Harry Kane had a few dodgy loans before he came good, so we need to take that into account too, however, with say Plange that is now 3 in a row, so maybe there is something wrong and/or he just isn't that good.
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| Stirlingsays 12 Jan 24 5.32pm |
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Originally posted by ambrose7
As Rak-Sakyi did, lighting up League 1 at the age of 20 is probably the lowest acceptable performance for a player who could have a lengthy Premier League career. If you're in/out of a mid-table League 1 side at the age of 21+, we may as well be moving that player on. At best they could be a bit part player for us but nothing to get excited about. When he was Ola-Adebomi's current age, Olise had been bought by Palace - he had already done it in the Championship. Marc Guehi was in a 40 game season at Swansea in the top 6. Doesn't appear to be anything special in this 19-21 group and Ozoh seems to be the genuine prospect in the 17-19 group. Maybe Derry or Marsh could come through, but they need to have a big 18 months from now. Late development does happen in a minority of cases but I think this is a sensible analysis. We are developing professionals but it's always going to be a reality that a top quality premiership player is a relative rarity. However, Zaha was a transformative player for us and without the academy it's less likely that would have happened.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| ambrose7 Croydon 12 Jan 24 5.38pm |
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Originally posted by palace99
the only thing i would add to that is that some players clearly develop later than others, so we shouldn't be writing everyone off just because they haven't played 50 leagues games by 21. Gareth Southgate only became a regular at 22 and ended up getting over 50 caps for England. Others such as Rooney and Ferguson at BHA were physically grown men at 16, whereas say JRS still has some way to go. Harry Kane had a few dodgy loans before he came good, so we need to take that into account too, however, with say Plange that is now 3 in a row, so maybe there is something wrong and/or he just isn't that good. It's not a rule without any exception albeit I'm struggling to think of them. Much easier to think of those that developed early than couldn't get in a League 1 side at 20/21 and made it. Harry Kane actually got 21 Premier League goals in the season when he was 21 which is Plange's current age, and only 1 year older than Kymani-Gordon and Ola-Adebomi. The loans are a touch unfair too - he got 9 in 27 at Millwall in the Championship when he was 18.
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| monkey Sittingbourne,but made in Bromley 12 Jan 24 7.18pm |
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Originally posted by palace99
Something seems to be going wrong for our youngsters. Both Gordon (Cambridge) and Plange (Carlisle) have been returned without setting the world alight. This is the 3rd disappointing loan Plange has now had. Others such as Phillips at Wycombe has been in and out of the team and i think the only regular is the goalie, Goodman, at Colchester. Phillips in particular looked highly rated and had a good loan at Shrews last year. A few Championship clubs were interested in the summer and he signed a new contract. This year he seems to have gone backwards. Maybe they are just not good enough This is what I keep saying, people keep banging on about giving youth a chance, well just maybe they’re not good enough. Especially once they start sending them out on loan, no matter how much they big them up saying it’ll help with their progress, it’s usually the first sign that they’ve got no chance of making it big time with us and eventually they’ll be gone permanently to the lower or non leagues
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| Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 12 Jan 24 7.26pm |
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Originally posted by palace99
the only thing i would add to that is that some players clearly develop later than others, so we shouldn't be writing everyone off just because they haven't played 50 leagues games by 21. Gareth Southgate only became a regular at 22 and ended up getting over 50 caps for England. Others such as Rooney and Ferguson at BHA were physically grown men at 16, whereas say JRS still has some way to go. Harry Kane had a few dodgy loans before he came good, so we need to take that into account too, however, with say Plange that is now 3 in a row, so maybe there is something wrong and/or he just isn't that good. His first loan spell was at L.Orient signed by Russell Slade. I believe that as a youngster Kane was rejected by Arsenal for being too portly and not that fleet of foot.
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| palace99 New Mills 15 Jan 24 9.22am |
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Originally posted by ambrose7
It's not a rule without any exception albeit I'm struggling to think of them. Much easier to think of those that developed early than couldn't get in a League 1 side at 20/21 and made it. Harry Kane actually got 21 Premier League goals in the season when he was 21 which is Plange's current age, and only 1 year older than Kymani-Gordon and Ola-Adebomi. The loans are a touch unfair too - he got 9 in 27 at Millwall in the Championship when he was 18. for accuracy, Harry Kane was 18 when loaned to Orient and was 19 when at Millwall. He then had 2 pretty unsuccessful spells at Norwich and Leicester before he made an impact at Spurs. Edited by palace99 (15 Jan 2024 9.23am)
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| Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 15 Jan 24 9.39am |
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Originally posted by palace99
for accuracy, Harry Kane was 18 when loaned to Orient and was 19 when at Millwall. He then had 2 pretty unsuccessful spells at Norwich and Leicester before he made an impact at Spurs. Edited by palace99 (15 Jan 2024 9.23am) Kane joined Norwich just after the start of the season, then transferred to Leicester playing his first game for them in February.He only played a few games for Norwich and never scored, he netted twice for Leicester. Edited by Willo (15 Jan 2024 9.43am)
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| MrRobbo Chaldon 15 Jan 24 11.04am |
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Originally posted by ambrose7
As Rak-Sakyi did, lighting up League 1 at the age of 20 is probably the lowest acceptable performance for a player who could have a lengthy Premier League career. If you're in/out of a mid-table League 1 side at the age of 21+, we may as well be moving that player on. At best they could be a bit part player for us but nothing to get excited about. When he was Ola-Adebomi's current age, Olise had been bought by Palace - he had already done it in the Championship. Marc Guehi was in a 40 game season at Swansea in the top 6. Doesn't appear to be anything special in this 19-21 group and Ozoh seems to be the genuine prospect in the 17-19 group. Maybe Derry or Marsh could come through, but they need to have a big 18 months from now. Hard not to agree (thought point taken re late bloomers). Its just about being realistic about what level these lads might be at, and then in turn not shouting at the manager for not playing them. Not sure if I 100% agree, but Brentford shut their academy, and I can see why.
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| Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 15 Jan 24 11.21am |
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Originally posted by MrRobbo
Hard not to agree (thought point taken re late bloomers). Its just about being realistic about what level these lads might be at, and then in turn not shouting at the manager for not playing them. Not sure if I 100% agree, but Brentford shut their academy, and I can see why. Olise and Guehi have entered the debate on this Thread. At present, to ask our Academy players to be thrust into the PL and expect them to 'Hit the ground running' is unrealistic, besides we don't have the luxury of persevering with them as we are always looking over our shoulders at that dreaded relegation trapdoor.
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taylors lovechild  15 Jan 24 12.20pm |
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While proper PL stars are likely to be shining by the age of 21, it is harder to spot the Jeff Schlupps and Joel Wards of the world. The players who will contribute but who might not stand out immediately. For example, Jake O'Brien looked like a quality player, but he was already 22 when he left us and was nowhere near the first team and now he's one of the first names on the sheet for Lyon. It was also interesting to hear Warnock talking about how the youth team coach told him Moses and Scannell were not ready but he ignored that advice and threw them both in. The rest is history. He doesn't get talked about much but I've been quite impressed by Jadan Raymond when I've seen him play.
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