What's the alternative? Sin Feinn are 100 times worse than the current crop in government. The country is the EU lapdogs. I can only dream of the country following the UK and getting out of the EU.

It is the very fact of their millennia of persecution that makes their oppression of Palestinians and lurch to hard right authoritarian rule all the more baffling.

Errrr....are you kidding Steely?

Haven't you been watching these last seventy years?

I make no particular comment on the rights or wrongs of the nation of Israel because I'm not a globalist and I learned from the Iraqi war that interfering only creates resentment and larger problems. So I forgo stating the obvious fact that Israel operates as an apartheid and almost amusingly racist state and that the west are in complete hypocrisy because.....well...let's leave it there.

However, just as I don't spend my time wailing over how Saudi internally operates thinking we need to interfere (modern imperialism) I don't spend my time wailing over Israel either.

However, I will make this observation on the future of Israel's politics.....and it's not going to please the left....but it reflects the reality consequence of demographics.

Israel has been becoming increasingly right wing since its formation.....For example, its first PM (Ben-Gurion) was quite liberal and secular, a 40s version of your New York Jews today....people can point towards how this was allied with extreme ethnocentrism (pretty much essential when fighting for a new state) and how hypocritical that is... but I couldn't possibly comment.

However, the problem the left have is that their middle and higher class don't have children at anything like the rate of conservatives....especially the religious.

So in Israel....a country....and I almost have to stop myself from laughing when I write this....a country which restricts who can become Israeli for obvious reasons....it is the religious right who have been gaining in power since its formation.

Netanyahu is just the manifestation of the power dymanics that Israel is undergoing and the reality is that Israel will becoming more right wing not less due to these demographical realities.....demographics is destiny just as much there as it is here. It doesn't matter how many Arabs live in Israel (one third) if they can't vote on who leads it.

This obviously creates a rift between the highly socially liberal and increasingly globalist power base in the west, often with liberal secular Jews within that power base as well.....and the direction that Israel is heading down.

You may even eventually see a split between the US (a huge financial and military support base for Israel) and Israel.....which is hard to imagine given the circumstances but probably eventually inevitable if the political trajectory stays the same......which demographics will have the largest say over.

Edited by Stirlingsays (31 Jul 2023 11.45am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

It certainly feels like that, which given who is involved is very odd indeed. It will be interesting to observe it first-hand and directly hear opinions. From the reports, it appears this is very widely opposed and not what the people as a whole want. When I was there before, which is a long time ago, I went with some preconceptions which were revised to a degree because the relationships I saw between the Israelis and local Arabs was a lot better than I expected. Human nature overcoming political prejudice in clear view.

I am not going there for the politics. I am going for the history, and for my wife.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

I've always loved Peters & Lee's 'Welcome Home' song.

[Link]

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

That's a good point about the shift to the right dictated by demographics. Kind of how this country has moved right due to the aging population, although in their case it is about right wing conservatives knocking them out for God v middle class liberals behaving like... well... middle class liberals the West over. Perhaps Northern Ireland and the large protestant families is a better example?

However, I am not sure if it is just that. You highlight US support and, frankly, that also has a great deal to do with all the problems of Israel and the middle east in general.

There is a regular poster on here (Jiminez? - I am not attacking him!) who has, as his strap line, something like "Support for the USA and Israel". And that is it. Blind support irrespective of the conduct of Israel or other moral complexities. From the Jewish Diaspora this is something you might expect and understand. However, from many Americans, it is religious, but not the Jewish lobby. Alone, they have the influence but not the numbers. Those who blindly support Israel, tend to be hard right fundamental Christians. They believe the land was given to Israelis by God. There is no arguing or rationing with this. It is black and white, night and day.

No US party of any colour can ignore or upset this huge power base of around 40% of the country, all of whom strongly believe in their democratic duty to vote i.e. in practice a great deal more than 40% of those who bother to turn up to put an X on the card. The Democrats tend to be a little more sensitive to e.g. Palestinian rights which is why Israel will bomb a site where terror suspects are believed to be held up - irrespective of collateral damage to women and kids - the millisecond a Republican GE win is announced; but otherwise there is precious little between them.

With all the resources from American evangelists pouring into the coffers of Israeli conservatives in addition to demographic changes and (I am guessing) a propensity to vote, small wonder the right have held power in Israel for so long.

There are, of course, knock on effects. The generally liberal Europe and other powers are powerless to change things while US support is so strong and unwavering.

This has brought the West and the Arab worlds into conflict. A difficult one for us who spent so long fostering strong links with Arab countries (for obvious reasons). Iran, in particular, feels an affinity to their Shiite brothers and their support for Palestine is the reason they are demonized in the West, not for their support for "terrorism" which tends to come from the Suni Gulf states (who, perversely, we must pretend to love while the Petro-world exists). All the nations neighbouring Israel would happily wipe it off the map and replace it with the Palestinian state that pre-dated the War. Therefore, they hate the West and, especially, the US that keeps it there and them away. They may have been appeased had Israel actually adhered to any of the UN treaties that preserved at least some Palestinian sovereignty, but Israel breached them all with impunity and with full US support. And all the while, the West is fed an endless diet of anti-Arab propaganda not helped, of course, by that colossal own goal that was 9/11.

The other great irony is that those Christian US citizens who believe, without question, in the divine right of Israelis in Israel, are probably antisemitic to a man! And Israelis probably hate them in return. Not a subtlety they will ever appreciate.

Thus, I do not share your belief that the US will pull out or withdraw their support. The situation set out above shows no sign of abating. Indeed, the current all but unopposed charge of Trump to the White House and the expansion of populism and evangelism indicates that the shift to unbending support in the US is actually growing, not diminishing.

It seems extraordinary to be saying this in 2023, but for so long as people believe that the nation was a gift from God, there is no chance the problem will go anywhere. Perhaps (and I cant believe I am saying this) salvation comes from the growth of secular China as a global power? Discuss.