Church and State

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Church and State

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 11 May 23 4.17pm
Originally posted by Badger11 Twas ever thus. Why do you think Henry II said "will no one rid me of this troublesome priest". The UK is the only democracy that has a state religion putting us alongside the likes of Iran and Saudi Arabia. We need to separate church and state then the Archbishop is free to say what he likes because I doubt many will listen. Why on earth does he get to vote on these matters. Henry VIII founded the Church of England (honestly called the Catholic Church of England) in 1534. The church Thomas A'Beckett was part of was the Roman Catholic Church - although it didn't need to be called anything other than 'the church' as nothing else existed. Except the Nestorians et al in Constantinople. But you'd be lucky, or incredibly unlucky, to ever see them. Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 11 May 23 4.17pm

Originally posted by Badger11

Twas ever thus.

Why do you think Henry II said "will no one rid me of this troublesome priest".

The UK is the only democracy that has a state religion putting us alongside the likes of Iran and Saudi Arabia.

We need to separate church and state then the Archbishop is free to say what he likes because I doubt many will listen. Why on earth does he get to vote on these matters.

Henry VIII founded the Church of England (honestly called the Catholic Church of England) in 1534. The church Thomas A'Beckett was part of was the Roman Catholic Church - although it didn't need to be called anything other than 'the church' as nothing else existed. Except the Nestorians et al in Constantinople. But you'd be lucky, or incredibly unlucky, to ever see them.

Red and Blue Army!

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Badger11 Beckenham 11 May 23 4.21pm
Originally posted by ASCPFC Henry VIII founded the Church of England (honestly called the Catholic Church of England) in 1534. The church Thomas A'Beckett was part of was the Roman Catholic Church - although it didn't need to be called anything other than 'the church' as nothing else existed. Except the Nestorians et al in Constantinople. But you'd be lucky, or incredibly unlucky, to ever see them. Thanks, of course Henry II was complaining that Becket was interfering in secular affairs and refusing to allow priests monks etc to be tried by the state. In fact I believe that the church vs state issue goes back before that. Anyway this is an issue we have not addressed in this country and should. All Henry VIII did was appoint himself head of the church so replaced papal influence with his own, it didn't help the people. Edited by Badger11 (11 May 2023 4.22pm) One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 11 May 23 4.21pm

Originally posted by ASCPFC

Thanks, of course Henry II was complaining that Becket was interfering in secular affairs and refusing to allow priests monks etc to be tried by the state.

In fact I believe that the church vs state issue goes back before that. Anyway this is an issue we have not addressed in this country and should.

All Henry VIII did was appoint himself head of the church so replaced papal influence with his own, it didn't help the people.

Edited by Badger11 (11 May 2023 4.22pm)

One more point

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steeleye20 Croydon 11 May 23 6.09pm
How many people in England are practising christians, I mean regular church people? France is secular, I think Welby has some front really COE the state the Royals they are past their sell-by date, they do not reflect our multi-cultural modern society. Its been a good act but one can't help but feel we are behind the times in many ways. Reform though does not look likely in our country any time soon.
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steeleye20

Croydon 11 May 23 6.09pm

How many people in England are practising christians, I mean regular church people?

France is secular, I think Welby has some front really COE the state the Royals they are past their sell-by date, they do not reflect our multi-cultural modern society.

Its been a good act but one can't help but feel we are behind the times in many ways.

Reform though does not look likely in our country any time soon.

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Matov 11 May 23 6.16pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 How many people in England are practising christians, I mean regular church people? France is secular, I think Welby has some front really COE the state the Royals they are past their sell-by date, they do not reflect our multi-cultural modern society. Its been a good act but one can't help but feel we are behind the times in many ways. Reform though does not look likely in our country any time soon. We need to go one of two ways. The first is 100% secular. As things stand, it makes little sense and only causes division. I can see all the arguements for that. The second is that other. Return to full-on Christianity. Closing all but the essentials on Sundays, limits on other faiths in terms of them building places of worship, clamping down fully on all this LBQTP nonsense, a return to the true sanctity of marriage and so on, Ideally under the banner of a New Holy Roman Empire. Anything other than the tepidity of what we have at the moment. And in either case, a full-on reabsorption of the C of E into the Catholic Church. Even perhaps being able to come together with our Orthodox Brothers, deus vault. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

11 May 23 6.16pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

How many people in England are practising christians, I mean regular church people?

France is secular, I think Welby has some front really COE the state the Royals they are past their sell-by date, they do not reflect our multi-cultural modern society.

Its been a good act but one can't help but feel we are behind the times in many ways.

Reform though does not look likely in our country any time soon.

We need to go one of two ways. The first is 100% secular. As things stand, it makes little sense and only causes division. I can see all the arguements for that.

The second is that other. Return to full-on Christianity. Closing all but the essentials on Sundays, limits on other faiths in terms of them building places of worship, clamping down fully on all this LBQTP nonsense, a return to the true sanctity of marriage and so on,

Ideally under the banner of a New Holy Roman Empire.

Anything other than the tepidity of what we have at the moment.

And in either case, a full-on reabsorption of the C of E into the Catholic Church. Even perhaps being able to come together with our Orthodox Brothers, deus vault.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Hrolf The Ganger 11 May 23 8.09pm
Originally posted by Matov We need to go one of two ways. The first is 100% secular. As things stand, it makes little sense and only causes division. I can see all the arguements for that. The second is that other. Return to full-on Christianity. Closing all but the essentials on Sundays, limits on other faiths in terms of them building places of worship, clamping down fully on all this LBQTP nonsense, a return to the true sanctity of marriage and so on, Ideally under the banner of a New Holy Roman Empire. Anything other than the tepidity of what we have at the moment. And in either case, a full-on reabsorption of the C of E into the Catholic Church. Even perhaps being able to come together with our Orthodox Brothers, deus vault. You must be kidding. Religions belief is a personal choice, but the institutions of religion need to go away as quickly as possible. All of them.
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Hrolf The Ganger

11 May 23 8.09pm

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Originally posted by Matov

We need to go one of two ways. The first is 100% secular. As things stand, it makes little sense and only causes division. I can see all the arguements for that.

Ideally under the banner of a New Holy Roman Empire.

Anything other than the tepidity of what we have at the moment.

And in either case, a full-on reabsorption of the C of E into the Catholic Church. Even perhaps being able to come together with our Orthodox Brothers, deus vault.

You must be kidding.

Religions belief is a personal choice, but the institutions of religion need to go away as quickly as possible. All of them.

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Matov 11 May 23 8.34pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger You must be kidding. Religions belief is a personal choice, but the institutions of religion need to go away as quickly as possible. All of them. Totally disagree. We need stronger Christian institutions, a confident Church willing to defend itself and stand up to the literal evil we live amongst. Otherwise what does our civilisation become? People with a religion will always over-come those without. Might take a while, there might be set backs but ultimately they win. Because a true faith ALWAYS makes you the stronger than anybody with no belief. So in the West, if we lose our Christian identity we will eventually become ruled over by those of other faiths. Just a simple fact of history. You want the West to survive, go to Mass. It all starts there. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

11 May 23 8.34pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

You must be kidding.

Religions belief is a personal choice, but the institutions of religion need to go away as quickly as possible. All of them.

Totally disagree. We need stronger Christian institutions, a confident Church willing to defend itself and stand up to the literal evil we live amongst.

Otherwise what does our civilisation become?

People with a religion will always over-come those without. Might take a while, there might be set backs but ultimately they win. Because a true faith ALWAYS makes you the stronger than anybody with no belief.

So in the West, if we lose our Christian identity we will eventually become ruled over by those of other faiths. Just a simple fact of history.

You want the West to survive, go to Mass. It all starts there.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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steeleye20 Croydon 11 May 23 11.00pm
Originally posted by Matov Totally disagree. We need stronger Christian institutions, a confident Church willing to defend itself and stand up to the literal evil we live amongst. Otherwise what does our civilisation become? People with a religion will always over-come those without. Might take a while, there might be set backs but ultimately they win. Because a true faith ALWAYS makes you the stronger than anybody with no belief. So in the West, if we lose our Christian identity we will eventually become ruled over by those of other faiths. Just a simple fact of history. You want the West to survive, go to Mass. It all starts there. You are nothing if not interesting M.
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steeleye20

Croydon 11 May 23 11.00pm

Originally posted by Matov

Totally disagree. We need stronger Christian institutions, a confident Church willing to defend itself and stand up to the literal evil we live amongst.

Otherwise what does our civilisation become?

So in the West, if we lose our Christian identity we will eventually become ruled over by those of other faiths. Just a simple fact of history.

You want the West to survive, go to Mass. It all starts there.

You are nothing if not interesting M.

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cryrst The garden of England 11 May 23 11.18pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 You are nothing if not interesting M. I guess what he’s saying is the same with us whiteys moaning about blm, reparations, immigration etc. all left wing ideology’s. Eventually they eat themselves so it will even out in time. Not our time but from the grave some of us will be getting the popcorn out.
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cryrst

The garden of England 11 May 23 11.18pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

You are nothing if not interesting M.

I guess what he’s saying is the same with us whiteys moaning about blm, reparations, immigration etc. all left wing ideology’s. Eventually they eat themselves so it will even out in time. Not our time but from the grave some of us will be getting the popcorn out.

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Matov 12 May 23 8.03am
Originally posted by cryrst I guess what he’s saying is the same with us whiteys moaning about blm, reparations, immigration etc. all left wing ideology’s. Eventually they eat themselves so it will even out in time. Not our time but from the grave some of us will be getting the popcorn out. Not really. I am saying that the fewer of us who go to Church and proclaim a belief in a higher power, the weaker and weaker the West become. Islam will not conquer the West. It will merely occupy the undefended ground. The West is being gifted to them. With the irony being it will be the Left who will suffer the most. I could possibly live in an Islamic nation with my principles. I share many of the socially Conservative values that Islam preaches. Technically, as long as I cough up a specific tax and accept various limits on what I can do and say, then I can live in an Islamic Republic and still proclaim my Christian faith. But the average Western Soc.lib? They are f***ed. Literally. Thrown off the top of any building high enough to ensure a messy landing. Now I ain't ever going to live in an Islamic Republic. Death before dishonour and all that macho BS. But Muslims are not my enemy. The Progressive Left is my enemy because they want to destroy our civilization. And for what? This is where I truly struggle. So that men can pretend to be women on nothing more than a whim? Where feral mobs can loot and riot because they don't like how a cop treated somebody? I get what I am trying to defend in my own, almost non-impactful manner but still giving it a go anyway. What I don't get about the Progressive Left is what they truly want to gain? They are literally suicidal. A collective death wish. They cheer on kids getting sterilised. Celebrate perfectly healthy babies being killed in the womb. An actual death cult that are able to force-feed the wider populace the Kool-aid in a variety of ways. Sometimes even I think I can be hyperbolic, even hysterical, but then when I literally see what is happening, realise that if anything, downplaying it. Edited by Matov (12 May 2023 8.10am) "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

12 May 23 8.03am

Originally posted by cryrst

Not really.

I am saying that the fewer of us who go to Church and proclaim a belief in a higher power, the weaker and weaker the West become.

Islam will not conquer the West. It will merely occupy the undefended ground. The West is being gifted to them.

With the irony being it will be the Left who will suffer the most. I could possibly live in an Islamic nation with my principles. I share many of the socially Conservative values that Islam preaches. Technically, as long as I cough up a specific tax and accept various limits on what I can do and say, then I can live in an Islamic Republic and still proclaim my Christian faith. But the average Western Soc.lib? They are f***ed. Literally. Thrown off the top of any building high enough to ensure a messy landing.

Now I ain't ever going to live in an Islamic Republic. Death before dishonour and all that macho BS. But Muslims are not my enemy.

The Progressive Left is my enemy because they want to destroy our civilization. And for what? This is where I truly struggle. So that men can pretend to be women on nothing more than a whim? Where feral mobs can loot and riot because they don't like how a cop treated somebody?

I get what I am trying to defend in my own, almost non-impactful manner but still giving it a go anyway. What I don't get about the Progressive Left is what they truly want to gain?

They are literally suicidal. A collective death wish. They cheer on kids getting sterilised. Celebrate perfectly healthy babies being killed in the womb. An actual death cult that are able to force-feed the wider populace the Kool-aid in a variety of ways.

Sometimes even I think I can be hyperbolic, even hysterical, but then when I literally see what is happening, realise that if anything, downplaying it.

Edited by Matov (12 May 2023 8.10am)

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 12 May 23 9.08am
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger You must be kidding. Religions belief is a personal choice, but the institutions of religion need to go away as quickly as possible. All of them. I completely agree with you. We need to remove religion from the public square and for it to be a wholly private matter. The idea of expecting us to return to a Christian-dominated state, pushing other religions aside, is nonsensical. This sounds like the solution proposed by Andrew Torba of Gab in the USA and it's dangerous. You cannot force people to believe what they don't believe and we no longer believe, because we know more. Adherents of some other religions don't yet know what we know, but when they have lived here for a while, they will know. That's not to say we don't need to find a common moral compass to set standards and guide us in the way that Christianity used to. We do, but it already exists in our shared humanity. The problem we have is how to get people to recognise that without it being codified without a religious structure. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 12 May 23 9.08am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

You must be kidding.

Religions belief is a personal choice, but the institutions of religion need to go away as quickly as possible. All of them.

I completely agree with you.

We need to remove religion from the public square and for it to be a wholly private matter.

The idea of expecting us to return to a Christian-dominated state, pushing other religions aside, is nonsensical. This sounds like the solution proposed by Andrew Torba of Gab in the USA and it's dangerous. You cannot force people to believe what they don't believe and we no longer believe, because we know more. Adherents of some other religions don't yet know what we know, but when they have lived here for a while, they will know.

That's not to say we don't need to find a common moral compass to set standards and guide us in the way that Christianity used to. We do, but it already exists in our shared humanity. The problem we have is how to get people to recognise that without it being codified without a religious structure.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 12 May 23 10.25am
Originally posted by steeleye20 How many people in England are practising christians, I mean regular church people? France is secular, I think Welby has some front really COE the state the Royals they are past their sell-by date, they do not reflect our multi-cultural modern society. Its been a good act but one can't help but feel we are behind the times in many ways. Reform though does not look likely in our country any time soon. France is probably more religious than the UK. It's heavily Catholic influenced - the secular laws are really used to stop outward displays of religion in the state. But everyone knows that mainly is used to attack Islam. It isn't particularly working. If we want to talk about religion it's the Islamic influence we should talk about. On one hand we're not allowed bacon and alcohol at occasions, then the next it's gay marriage and trans rights. Talk about a la carte. Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 12 May 23 10.25am

Originally posted by steeleye20

How many people in England are practising christians, I mean regular church people?

France is secular, I think Welby has some front really COE the state the Royals they are past their sell-by date, they do not reflect our multi-cultural modern society.

Its been a good act but one can't help but feel we are behind the times in many ways.

Reform though does not look likely in our country any time soon.

France is probably more religious than the UK. It's heavily Catholic influenced - the secular laws are really used to stop outward displays of religion in the state. But everyone knows that mainly is used to attack Islam. It isn't particularly working. If we want to talk about religion it's the Islamic influence we should talk about. On one hand we're not allowed bacon and alcohol at occasions, then the next it's gay marriage and trans rights. Talk about a la carte.

Red and Blue Army!

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The Dolphin 12 May 23 12.05pm
The Church tells us that a Government policy is immoral. Immoral - really - coming from people who regularly abuse young people (and cover it up) and discriminate against gay people then I think that they should shut the f*** up!
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The Dolphin

12 May 23 12.05pm

The Church tells us that a Government policy is immoral.
Immoral - really - coming from people who regularly abuse young people (and cover it up) and discriminate against gay people then I think that they should shut the f*** up!

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