Tory sleaze part 2,783

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Tory sleaze part 2,783

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Badger11 Beckenham 03 Nov 21 6.09pm
Originally posted by PalazioVecchio you get the politicians you deserve. you think the UK is bad ? try the parliament full of crooks in Dublin. They make Mark Thatcher look like a Saint. where has nice virtuous heroic politicians ? - russia ? - Sweden ? - France ? was it ancient Greece or Rome where a leader was automatically put on trial at the end of his (and it was a 'he' ) Tenure in Office. The Czech's had it right, when time had run out for their PM somebody would open a window in Prague Castle and out he went (splat). One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 03 Nov 21 6.09pm

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

you get the politicians you deserve.

you think the UK is bad ? try the parliament full of crooks in Dublin. They make Mark Thatcher look like a Saint.

where has nice virtuous heroic politicians ?

- russia ?

- Sweden ?

- France ?

was it ancient Greece or Rome where a leader was automatically put on trial at the end of his (and it was a 'he' ) Tenure in Office.

The Czech's had it right, when time had run out for their PM somebody would open a window in Prague Castle and out he went (splat).

One more point

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BlueJay UK 03 Nov 21 6.11pm
Originally posted by PalazioVecchio the Tories are better than Labour. - Hartlepool. - Downing Street. Irrelevant if it's a further erosion of accountability and integrity, because it's something that will be taken advantage of across the board, not just by those you're more comfortable with being corrupt.
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BlueJay

UK 03 Nov 21 6.11pm

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

the Tories are better than Labour.

- Hartlepool.

- Downing Street.

Irrelevant if it's a further erosion of accountability and integrity, because it's something that will be taken advantage of across the board, not just by those you're more comfortable with being corrupt.

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BlueJay UK 03 Nov 21 6.13pm
Originally posted by PalazioVecchio you get the politicians you deserve. you think the UK is bad ? try the parliament full of crooks in Dublin. They make Mark Thatcher look like a Saint. where has nice virtuous heroic politicians ? - russia ? - Sweden ? - France ? was it ancient Greece or Rome where a leader was automatically put on trial at the end of his (and it was a 'he' ) Tenure in Office. Another distraction irrelevant to the point. The thread isn't about whether other countries are worse. Either it's good or bad that people sidestep accountability.
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BlueJay

UK 03 Nov 21 6.13pm

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

you get the politicians you deserve.

you think the UK is bad ? try the parliament full of crooks in Dublin. They make Mark Thatcher look like a Saint.

where has nice virtuous heroic politicians ?

- russia ?

- Sweden ?

- France ?

was it ancient Greece or Rome where a leader was automatically put on trial at the end of his (and it was a 'he' ) Tenure in Office.

Another distraction irrelevant to the point. The thread isn't about whether other countries are worse. Either it's good or bad that people sidestep accountability.

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BlueJay UK 03 Nov 21 6.15pm
Originally posted by Badger11 I have no idea if Paterson is guilty however David Davies outlined the investigation and subsequent process which if only half true is definitely flawed. That does not mean he is innocent just that they need a better process. 17 witnesses were refused permission to testify amongst other anomalies and no opportunity to appeal the decision. I get that the Tories maybe trying to get one of their own off the hook but Parliament / The Speaker need to improve the process. Agreed. It's always important that the party is power is accountable. There is less and less of that taking place. I posted this the other week.. "Raab threat to ‘correct’ court judgments is ‘deeply troubling’, warn legal experts" - [Link] Quote Legal experts have responded with alarm to suggestions from justice secretary Dominic Raab that he will legislate to “correct” court judgments in human rights cases that go against the government. The former head of the government’s legal service, Jonathan Jones, branded the deputy prime minister’s proposals “muddled”, while a professor of public law at Cambridge University said they were “deeply troubling” and that they threatened to undermine basic standards of good governance. Mr Raab announced plans to “overhaul” the Human Rights Act to reduce the influence of the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) at the Conservative Party conference in Manchester earlier this month. In an interview with the Sunday Telegraph, he said that he was devising a mechanism to allow ministers to introduce ad hoc legislation to “correct” court judgments, whether passed by the ECHR in Strasbourg or by UK judges, which he regards as creating new law through “judicial legislation” rather than the decisions of elected politicians. “Where there have been judgments that – albeit properly and duly delivered by the courts – we think are wrong, the right thing is for parliament to legislate to correct them. “We also want to protect and preserve the prerogatives of parliament from being whittled away by judicial legislation, abroad or indeed at home.” As parliament is already able to legislate to correct flaws in the law, it appeared Mr Raab was trying to use a new mechanism to allow ministers to take this step without obtaining MPs’ approval, he said. Mr Raab appeared to be suggesting changes that would give the government the power to correct court decisions through secondary legislation, which does not have to be subjected to scrutiny or votes in parliament. “Ultimately, this all strikes me as part of a project to enhance executive supremacy by treating courts, whether foreign or domestic, as unwelcome interlopers. Not the full article, just the pertinent aspects, but click through for it. While I can see why government might want to reshape or opt out of certain human rights laws, isn't Raab using this to crowbar in much wider powers for government? I'm not quite sure that I like the idea of zero checks and balances where individual ministers can overrule the courts without a vote, whether passed by the ECHR in Strasbourg or by UK judges. They will of course be biased if the particular laws relate to their own powers or conduct and judges were unable to rule against them. Plus what's the point of the rule of law if ministers can each 'correct' anything they don't like. Smacks of authoritarianism surely, with all kinds of consequences unless I'm misinterpreting it?
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BlueJay

UK 03 Nov 21 6.15pm

Originally posted by Badger11

I have no idea if Paterson is guilty however David Davies outlined the investigation and subsequent process which if only half true is definitely flawed. That does not mean he is innocent just that they need a better process.

17 witnesses were refused permission to testify amongst other anomalies and no opportunity to appeal the decision.

I get that the Tories maybe trying to get one of their own off the hook but Parliament / The Speaker need to improve the process.

Agreed. It's always important that the party is power is accountable. There is less and less of that taking place. I posted this the other week..

"Raab threat to ‘correct’ court judgments is ‘deeply troubling’, warn legal experts" - [Link]

Quote Legal experts have responded with alarm to suggestions from justice secretary Dominic Raab that he will legislate to “correct” court judgments in human rights cases that go against the government.

The former head of the government’s legal service, Jonathan Jones, branded the deputy prime minister’s proposals “muddled”, while a professor of public law at Cambridge University said they were “deeply troubling” and that they threatened to undermine basic standards of good governance.

Mr Raab announced plans to “overhaul” the Human Rights Act to reduce the influence of the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) at the Conservative Party conference in Manchester earlier this month.

In an interview with the Sunday Telegraph, he said that he was devising a mechanism to allow ministers to introduce ad hoc legislation to “correct” court judgments, whether passed by the ECHR in Strasbourg or by UK judges, which he regards as creating new law through “judicial legislation” rather than the decisions of elected politicians.

“Where there have been judgments that – albeit properly and duly delivered by the courts – we think are wrong, the right thing is for parliament to legislate to correct them.

“We also want to protect and preserve the prerogatives of parliament from being whittled away by judicial legislation, abroad or indeed at home.”

As parliament is already able to legislate to correct flaws in the law, it appeared Mr Raab was trying to use a new mechanism to allow ministers to take this step without obtaining MPs’ approval, he said.

Mr Raab appeared to be suggesting changes that would give the government the power to correct court decisions through secondary legislation, which does not have to be subjected to scrutiny or votes in parliament.

“Ultimately, this all strikes me as part of a project to enhance executive supremacy by treating courts, whether foreign or domestic, as unwelcome interlopers.

Not the full article, just the pertinent aspects, but click through for it. While I can see why government might want to reshape or opt out of certain human rights laws, isn't Raab using this to crowbar in much wider powers for government?

I'm not quite sure that I like the idea of zero checks and balances where individual ministers can overrule the courts without a vote, whether passed by the ECHR in Strasbourg or by UK judges. They will of course be biased if the particular laws relate to their own powers or conduct and judges were unable to rule against them. Plus what's the point of the rule of law if ministers can each 'correct' anything they don't like. Smacks of authoritarianism surely, with all kinds of consequences unless I'm misinterpreting it?

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PalazioVecchio south pole 03 Nov 21 6.32pm
Brexit proved the ruling Elites ( and their minions in the Mass Media) are out of step with John Bull on the street. Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford
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PalazioVecchio

south pole 03 Nov 21 6.32pm

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Brexit proved the ruling Elites ( and their minions in the Mass Media) are out of step with John Bull on the street.

Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford

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DanH SW2 03 Nov 21 6.39pm
Originally posted by PalazioVecchio Brexit proved the ruling Elites ( and their minions in the Mass Media) are out of step with John Bull on the street. But this is the Brexit government you all wanted and voted for?
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DanH

SW2 03 Nov 21 6.39pm

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

Brexit proved the ruling Elites ( and their minions in the Mass Media) are out of step with John Bull on the street.

But this is the Brexit government you all wanted and voted for?

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Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 03 Nov 21 6.56pm
Originally posted by DanH Owen Paterson found guilty by and independent panel of paid lobbying on behalf of those he is employed by on several occasions and recommended to be suspended. Tories now changing the rules so that the final say is down to a panel of 9 MPs; 5 of whom are Tory so he will get off the hook. They just don’t care do they? They have no interest in actually running the country, they’re only in it for their own career, power and to enrich themselves and their mates while they can, safe in the knowledge that 40% of the populace will vote them back in no matter what they do. Does this not really bother you lot that actually vote for them? They’re lining their pockets and taking us for mugs and you don’t seem to care. What surprises me more than the perverse decisions, is the lack of political opposition and the public apathy. Boris, the man who spuffed a wedge of public money to get his rocks of with that American businesswoman. Boris, the PM that prorogued Parliament to get his way. Boris, the divorced Catholic who somehow got a miracle to enable him to marry in Westminster Cathedral the government that gave £millions of PPE Covid contracts to their mates, with no accountability or monitoring of performance. They ae all 5h1tting on us from a great height,..and the voters would seemingly go back for more I disengage, I turn the page.
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Forest Hillbilly

in a hidey-hole 03 Nov 21 6.56pm

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Originally posted by DanH

Owen Paterson found guilty by and independent panel of paid lobbying on behalf of those he is employed by on several occasions and recommended to be suspended.

Tories now changing the rules so that the final say is down to a panel of 9 MPs; 5 of whom are Tory so he will get off the hook.

They just don’t care do they? They have no interest in actually running the country, they’re only in it for their own career, power and to enrich themselves and their mates while they can, safe in the knowledge that 40% of the populace will vote them back in no matter what they do.

Does this not really bother you lot that actually vote for them? They’re lining their pockets and taking us for mugs and you don’t seem to care.

What surprises me more than the perverse decisions, is the lack of political opposition and the public apathy.

Boris, the man who spuffed a wedge of public money to get his rocks of with that American businesswoman.
Boris, the PM that prorogued Parliament to get his way.

Boris, the divorced Catholic who somehow got a miracle to enable him to marry in Westminster Cathedral

the government that gave £millions of PPE Covid contracts to their mates, with no accountability or monitoring of performance.

They ae all 5h1tting on us from a great height,..and the voters would seemingly go back for more

I disengage, I turn the page.

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Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 03 Nov 21 6.58pm
Originally posted by BlueJay Irrelevant if it's a further erosion of accountability and integrity, because it's something that will be taken advantage of across the board, not just by those you're more comfortable with being corrupt. nailed it ^^^^ I disengage, I turn the page.
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Forest Hillbilly

in a hidey-hole 03 Nov 21 6.58pm

Originally posted by BlueJay

nailed it ^^^^

I disengage, I turn the page.

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PalazioVecchio south pole 03 Nov 21 7.05pm
Originally posted by DanH But this is the Brexit government you all wanted and voted for? not all Eagles live in the UK. Nor do we have a vote there anymore. Political accountability can come in many forms. Being voted out of office or in Ancient Rome it was the assassin's dagger. And there are many parallels to Ancient Rome in the UK today. The violent death of various politicians has shown all and sundry that the lessons of history are not to be idly forgotten. Corruption in public office seems to be particularly bad in the Poorest countries. Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford
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PalazioVecchio

south pole 03 Nov 21 7.05pm

Originally posted by DanH

But this is the Brexit government you all wanted and voted for?

not all Eagles live in the UK. Nor do we have a vote there anymore.

Political accountability can come in many forms. Being voted out of office or in Ancient Rome it was the assassin's dagger.

And there are many parallels to Ancient Rome in the UK today.

The violent death of various politicians has shown all and sundry that the lessons of history are not to be idly forgotten.

Corruption in public office seems to be particularly bad in the Poorest countries.

Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford

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cryrst The garden of England 03 Nov 21 7.20pm
Originally posted by DanH But this is the Brexit government you all wanted and voted for? And if you are correct they will be voted out at the next election. If not then clearly more people don't care about what's happened and are concentrating on their own lives. Whatever has or hasn't happened atm and going forward I would guess won't impact many. Morals end at the bottom right hand corner of a payslip I'm afraid.
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cryrst

The garden of England 03 Nov 21 7.20pm

Originally posted by DanH

But this is the Brexit government you all wanted and voted for?

And if you are correct they will be voted out at the next election. If not then clearly more people don't care about what's happened and are concentrating on their own lives.
Whatever has or hasn't happened atm and going forward I would guess won't impact many. Morals end at the bottom right hand corner of a payslip I'm afraid.

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DanH SW2 03 Nov 21 7.41pm
Originally posted by cryrst And if you are correct they will be voted out at the next election. If not then clearly more people don't care about what's happened and are concentrating on their own lives. Whatever has or hasn't happened atm and going forward I would guess won't impact many. Morals end at the bottom right hand corner of a payslip I'm afraid. That last sentence. Christ.
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DanH

SW2 03 Nov 21 7.41pm

Originally posted by cryrst

That last sentence. Christ.

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Stirlingsays 03 Nov 21 7.47pm
Originally posted by DanH But this is the Brexit government you all wanted and voted for? Well, it's better than Labour who apparently can't even recognise a real woman from a bloke in a dress. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

03 Nov 21 7.47pm

Originally posted by DanH

But this is the Brexit government you all wanted and voted for?

Well, it's better than Labour who apparently can't even recognise a real woman from a bloke in a dress.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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