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Teddy Eagle 30 Dec 19 2.13pm | |
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Originally posted by ASCPFC
I have always been Labour. Since Blair, I found it hard to support them. My personal ideas have come closer to the right in that I don't agree with unfettered immigration or the lack of integration within society. I believe it is a Western problem - not only Northern European. I am increasingly frustrated with people who have no intention of ever working or achieving anything being given housing, health care and education, over and above those who do work. Particularly those who just work to live. I suspect new political parties to emerge that reflect this. Check out Blue Labour. Maurice Glasman has some interesting ideas.
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Stirlingsays 30 Dec 19 3.33pm | |
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Originally posted by ASCPFC
I have always been Labour. Since Blair, I found it hard to support them. My personal ideas have come closer to the right in that I don't agree with unfettered immigration or the lack of integration within society. I believe it is a Western problem - not only Northern European. I am increasingly frustrated with people who have no intention of ever working or achieving anything being given housing, health care and education, over and above those who do work. Particularly those who just work to live. I suspect new political parties to emerge that reflect this. All completely valid perspectives in my view. I'd say that politics has always been 'identity politics' in so much as different parties represent different groups or demographics more than others....for example old Labour sort of represented the working class whereas this version represents minorities and the socially liberal in the middle class. Perhaps what you mean by 'identity politics' is 'racial politics'. Yes, that is on the march, taking its lead from the US and I'm afraid it's not going to change.....Get on board or lose long term....it'll be more your children that will really experience it. No one changes a successful tactic and the left are going to win on birth demographics. Those who think they can hold their nose above it all should reflect on the fact that one side is passing to its own players while the other is passing to everyone. Long term, It's obvious who wins that match. Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Dec 2019 3.39pm)
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 30 Dec 19 6.19pm | |
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This by far not the first time I have read these kind of sentiments which, for me at least, are a sad reflection of our times. Here is my perspective on why these feelings now exist. About 11 to 12 years ago I got to spend time with a bunch of American ex pats in SE Asia. Mostly ex military, many were ex Marines. All were NRA enthusiasts and it was from them that I first heard of the possibility of Trump eventually running, which was something they supported. What also was new for me back then was the level of mistrust in the regular news channels and the absolute belief in a large number of conspiracy theories, the most widely held being that 9/11 was a US government sponsored event and not terrorism. They had all kinds of technical reasons as to why the towers could not have been destroyed by aircraft hitting them and that a series of explosions were responsible. These theories have all been debunked many times but back then they were totally convinced of them and got stridently upset if you challenged their conclusions, let alone laughed at them. This was, of course, well before the growth of Facebook and the rest of social media. These theories were though being spread via the internet and, in my opinion, were the precursor to today's situation. The commercial MSM have always spun stories to suit the agendas of their owners and their readership. They can and do distort the truth through the omission of facts and the over emphasis of others. However, what they cannot do without risking legal action is to publish out and out lies. That's why they have editors and lawyers checking their content before publication. What the non commercial MSM, and in particular the much maligned BBC, do is quite different. Editorial control is very strong and standards rigorously applied. When both the left and the right complain, as they do, that the BBC is biased I tend to think that they are doing a good job. That though hasn't stopped many people now trusting internet "news" sources much more than the MSM. Such sources have little or no editorial control and no real fear of being taken to court, as many are untraceable and anonymous. They are therefore opinion pieces emanating from whomsoever wishes to insert their opinions into the consciousness of their readers. With the ability to target their intended market now so much easier this has opened the door to all kinds of malelevant operators seeking to influence public opinion. Political operators at home, and those abroad seeking to sow division and discontent.
When the President of the USA seeks to capitalise on such things by describing the MSM as "fake news" and owes his election, at least in part, to them we can see that the political consequences are very real. The answer will only come if and when we find a way to introduce editorial controls over internet content. There are small glimmers of hope with a few efforts at removing obvious transgressions with the anticipated squeals about "freedom of speech" already being heard. Much, much more though is needed. It's somewhat ironic that the perpetrators of at least some of this, Russia and China, are themselves now seeking to control what people can read in their own countries. So should we actually trust the MSM and our governments? On balance I think we can and certainly 100% more than other sources. Why? Because nothing can be kept secret in these days of investigative journalism and whistleblower protections. If people do something wrong then we will find out. Except of course Trump is trying to intimidate the whistleblower in the impeachment trial. Calling him a "spy" and saying that in another age a spy would suffer the death penalty must be intended to frighten others with potentially damaging information. So what else has he got to hide? Conspiracy theory of my own? Of course, but one with a great deal of verifiable evidence to support it. These are dark days in our political life.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Hrolf The Ganger 30 Dec 19 6.36pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
This by far not the first time I have read these kind of sentiments which, for me at least, are a sad reflection of our times. Here is my perspective on why these feelings now exist. About 11 to 12 years ago I got to spend time with a bunch of American ex pats in SE Asia. Mostly ex military, many were ex Marines. All were NRA enthusiasts and it was from them that I first heard of the possibility of Trump eventually running, which was something they supported. What also was new for me back then was the level of mistrust in the regular news channels and the absolute belief in a large number of conspiracy theories, the most widely held being that 9/11 was a US government sponsored event and not terrorism. They had all kinds of technical reasons as to why the towers could not have been destroyed by aircraft hitting them and that a series of explosions were responsible. These theories have all been debunked many times but back then they were totally convinced of them and got stridently upset if you challenged their conclusions, let alone laughed at them. This was, of course, well before the growth of Facebook and the rest of social media. These theories were though being spread via the internet and, in my opinion, were the precursor to today's situation. The commercial MSM have always spun stories to suit the agendas of their owners and their readership. They can and do distort the truth through the omission of facts and the over emphasis of others. However, what they cannot do without risking legal action is to publish out and out lies. That's why they have editors and lawyers checking their content before publication. What the non commercial MSM, and in particular the much maligned BBC, do is quite different. Editorial control is very strong and standards rigorously applied. When both the left and the right complain, as they do, that the BBC is biased I tend to think that they are doing a good job. That though hasn't stopped many people now trusting internet "news" sources much more than the MSM. Such sources have little or no editorial control and no real fear of being taken to court, as many are untraceable and anonymous. They are therefore opinion pieces emanating from whomsoever wishes to insert their opinions into the consciousness of their readers. With the ability to target their intended market now so much easier this has opened the door to all kinds of malelevant operators seeking to influence public opinion. Political operators at home, and those abroad seeking to sow division and discontent.
When the President of the USA seeks to capitalise on such things by describing the MSM as "fake news" and owes his election, at least in part, to them we can see that the political consequences are very real. The answer will only come if and when we find a way to introduce editorial controls over internet content. There are small glimmers of hope with a few efforts at removing obvious transgressions with the anticipated squeals about "freedom of speech" already being heard. Much, much more though is needed. It's somewhat ironic that the perpetrators of at least some of this, Russia and China, are themselves now seeking to control what people can read in their own countries. So should we actually trust the MSM and our governments? On balance I think we can and certainly 100% more than other sources. Why? Because nothing can be kept secret in these days of investigative journalism and whistleblower protections. If people do something wrong then we will find out. Except of course Trump is trying to intimidate the whistleblower in the impeachment trial. Calling him a "spy" and saying that in another age a spy would suffer the death penalty must be intended to frighten others with potentially damaging information. So what else has he got to hide? Conspiracy theory of my own? Of course, but one with a great deal of verifiable evidence to support it. These are dark days in our political life. This is one sided.
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cryrst The garden of England 30 Dec 19 7.20pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
This by far not the first time I have read these kind of sentiments which, for me at least, are a sad reflection of our times. Here is my perspective on why these feelings now exist. About 11 to 12 years ago I got to spend time with a bunch of American ex pats in SE Asia. Mostly ex military, many were ex Marines. All were NRA enthusiasts and it was from them that I first heard of the possibility of Trump eventually running, which was something they supported. What also was new for me back then was the level of mistrust in the regular news channels and the absolute belief in a large number of conspiracy theories, the most widely held being that 9/11 was a US government sponsored event and not terrorism. They had all kinds of technical reasons as to why the towers could not have been destroyed by aircraft hitting them and that a series of explosions were responsible. These theories have all been debunked many times but back then they were totally convinced of them and got stridently upset if you challenged their conclusions, let alone laughed at them. This was, of course, well before the growth of Facebook and the rest of social media. These theories were though being spread via the internet and, in my opinion, were the precursor to today's situation. The commercial MSM have always spun stories to suit the agendas of their owners and their readership. They can and do distort the truth through the omission of facts and the over emphasis of others. However, what they cannot do without risking legal action is to publish out and out lies. That's why they have editors and lawyers checking their content before publication. What the non commercial MSM, and in particular the much maligned BBC, do is quite different. Editorial control is very strong and standards rigorously applied. When both the left and the right complain, as they do, that the BBC is biased I tend to think that they are doing a good job. That though hasn't stopped many people now trusting internet "news" sources much more than the MSM. Such sources have little or no editorial control and no real fear of being taken to court, as many are untraceable and anonymous. They are therefore opinion pieces emanating from whomsoever wishes to insert their opinions into the consciousness of their readers. With the ability to target their intended market now so much easier this has opened the door to all kinds of malelevant operators seeking to influence public opinion. Political operators at home, and those abroad seeking to sow division and discontent.
When the President of the USA seeks to capitalise on such things by describing the MSM as "fake news" and owes his election, at least in part, to them we can see that the political consequences are very real. The answer will only come if and when we find a way to introduce editorial controls over internet content. There are small glimmers of hope with a few efforts at removing obvious transgressions with the anticipated squeals about "freedom of speech" already being heard. Much, much more though is needed. It's somewhat ironic that the perpetrators of at least some of this, Russia and China, are themselves now seeking to control what people can read in their own countries. So should we actually trust the MSM and our governments? On balance I think we can and certainly 100% more than other sources. Why? Because nothing can be kept secret in these days of investigative journalism and whistleblower protections. If people do something wrong then we will find out. Except of course Trump is trying to intimidate the whistleblower in the impeachment trial. Calling him a "spy" and saying that in another age a spy would suffer the death penalty must be intended to frighten others with potentially damaging information. So what else has he got to hide? Conspiracy theory of my own? Of course, but one with a great deal of verifiable evidence to support it. These are dark days in our political life. Stridently upset if you challenged their conclusions. Mmmmm
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 30 Dec 19 7.52pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
This is one sided. I was not addressing either right or left issues. It is absolutely perfectly possible for the left to be deliberately misinformed. Just look at the Corbynistas for evidence of that. I was just addressing issues about what we now regard as the truth and how we receive the information upon which we decide what is the truth.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 30 Dec 19 7.56pm | |
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Originally posted by cryrst
Stridently upset if you challenged their conclusions. Mmmmm The difference ought to be obvious. The conspiracy theories I was encountering were plainly nonsense and ought never to have been the subject of serious consideration by any sane person. I watched the twin towers fall. I saw the second plane hit the building live. That was real. We can have opinions about Brexit. Less so about climate change. There will always be failures in an organisation as big as the NHS.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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cryrst The garden of England 30 Dec 19 8.10pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
The difference ought to be obvious. The conspiracy theories I was encountering were plainly nonsense and ought never to have been the subject of serious consideration by any sane person. I watched the twin towers fall. I saw the second plane hit the building live. That was real. We can have opinions about Brexit. Less so about climate change. There will always be failures in an organisation as big as the NHS. Why less so about man made climate change
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 30 Dec 19 9.00pm | |
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Originally posted by cryrst
Why less so about man made climate change The vast majority of the world's experts in this area agree that man made climate change is real. All of the world's responsible politicians take it seriously, whilst accepting the huge problems involved in taking the voting public with them. Anyone that denies it needs to back their opinion up with some hard facts which I have not yet heard.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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cryrst The garden of England 30 Dec 19 9.07pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
The vast majority of the world's experts in this area agree that man made climate change is real. All of the world's responsible politicians take it seriously, whilst accepting the huge problems involved in taking the voting public with them. Anyone that denies it needs to back their opinion up with some hard facts which I have not yet heard. At least you agree boris is a responsible politician at last.
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Teddy Eagle 30 Dec 19 9.11pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
This by far not the first time I have read these kind of sentiments which, for me at least, are a sad reflection of our times. Here is my perspective on why these feelings now exist. About 11 to 12 years ago I got to spend time with a bunch of American ex pats in SE Asia. Mostly ex military, many were ex Marines. All were NRA enthusiasts and it was from them that I first heard of the possibility of Trump eventually running, which was something they supported. What also was new for me back then was the level of mistrust in the regular news channels and the absolute belief in a large number of conspiracy theories, the most widely held being that 9/11 was a US government sponsored event and not terrorism. They had all kinds of technical reasons as to why the towers could not have been destroyed by aircraft hitting them and that a series of explosions were responsible. These theories have all been debunked many times but back then they were totally convinced of them and got stridently upset if you challenged their conclusions, let alone laughed at them. This was, of course, well before the growth of Facebook and the rest of social media. These theories were though being spread via the internet and, in my opinion, were the precursor to today's situation. The commercial MSM have always spun stories to suit the agendas of their owners and their readership. They can and do distort the truth through the omission of facts and the over emphasis of others. However, what they cannot do without risking legal action is to publish out and out lies. That's why they have editors and lawyers checking their content before publication. What the non commercial MSM, and in particular the much maligned BBC, do is quite different. Editorial control is very strong and standards rigorously applied. When both the left and the right complain, as they do, that the BBC is biased I tend to think that they are doing a good job. That though hasn't stopped many people now trusting internet "news" sources much more than the MSM. Such sources have little or no editorial control and no real fear of being taken to court, as many are untraceable and anonymous. They are therefore opinion pieces emanating from whomsoever wishes to insert their opinions into the consciousness of their readers. With the ability to target their intended market now so much easier this has opened the door to all kinds of malelevant operators seeking to influence public opinion. Political operators at home, and those abroad seeking to sow division and discontent.
When the President of the USA seeks to capitalise on such things by describing the MSM as "fake news" and owes his election, at least in part, to them we can see that the political consequences are very real. The answer will only come if and when we find a way to introduce editorial controls over internet content. There are small glimmers of hope with a few efforts at removing obvious transgressions with the anticipated squeals about "freedom of speech" already being heard. Much, much more though is needed. It's somewhat ironic that the perpetrators of at least some of this, Russia and China, are themselves now seeking to control what people can read in their own countries. So should we actually trust the MSM and our governments? On balance I think we can and certainly 100% more than other sources. Why? Because nothing can be kept secret in these days of investigative journalism and whistleblower protections. If people do something wrong then we will find out. Except of course Trump is trying to intimidate the whistleblower in the impeachment trial. Calling him a "spy" and saying that in another age a spy would suffer the death penalty must be intended to frighten others with potentially damaging information. So what else has he got to hide? Conspiracy theory of my own? Of course, but one with a great deal of verifiable evidence to support it. These are dark days in our political life. Whether or not MSM news is biased is a matter of opinion.
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silvertop Portishead 30 Dec 19 9.20pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
This is one sided. And that was a knee jerk attack on anything WE writes without actually reading what he wrote. While the examples he cited were from the right his substantive opinions apply equally to populist uncontrolled internet outlets from both ends of the political spectrum.
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