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Hrolf The Ganger 03 Dec 17 1.22pm
Originally posted by Mstrobez You must be living on another planet then. You normally get what you earn in life but before you existed, some people earned the chance to make the rules and fix the game in their favour. If you had the chance to do that, you would grab it with both hands. That is why socialism never works and why hypocrisy rules. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (03 Dec 2017 1.22pm)
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Hrolf The Ganger

03 Dec 17 1.22pm

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Originally posted by Mstrobez

You must be living on another planet then.

You normally get what you earn in life but before you existed, some people earned the chance to make the rules and fix the game in their favour.
If you had the chance to do that, you would grab it with both hands. That is why socialism never works and why hypocrisy rules.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (03 Dec 2017 1.22pm)

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Mstrobez 03 Dec 17 2.44pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger You normally get what you earn in life but before you existed, some people earned the chance to make the rules and fix the game in their favour. If you had the chance to do that, you would grab it with both hands. That is why socialism never works and why hypocrisy rules. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (03 Dec 2017 1.22pm) Well unfortunately for you we decided quite a while ago as a society that we'd attempt to introduce some form of social justice and welfare to your capitalist dream. That element of society and the people attempting to organise it has been neglected for a while now, hence the general unrest amongst the public and the emergence of a Corbyn. I'd guess that most people in the country believe that, in an economy the size of ours, everyone has the right to a high standard of education and health care at the bare minimum. Regardless of their position in the class system and the people in charge of running this should be rewarded accordingly. This is not currently the case. We're the Arthur over ere!
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Mstrobez

03 Dec 17 2.44pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (03 Dec 2017 1.22pm)

Well unfortunately for you we decided quite a while ago as a society that we'd attempt to introduce some form of social justice and welfare to your capitalist dream.

That element of society and the people attempting to organise it has been neglected for a while now, hence the general unrest amongst the public and the emergence of a Corbyn.

I'd guess that most people in the country believe that, in an economy the size of ours, everyone has the right to a high standard of education and health care at the bare minimum. Regardless of their position in the class system and the people in charge of running this should be rewarded accordingly.

This is not currently the case.

We're the Arthur over ere!

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 03 Dec 17 3.22pm
Jamie always speaks well on this subject. People in a developed and civilised society should be paid a wage you can at least survive on. You know, pay rent and food, bills and clothing. The country is failing there. Disappointing when you hear people say you have to work harder or find another job as if when they leave that job the next person stuck in that job or area of work is not going to have the same issues. On social mobility we're seeing more apprenticeships, albeit a bit late, and that's partly because cheap eu Labour is more profitable than training our own. What we've done in this area is shameful but it's amusing when you hear the left wing moan about leaving the EU but forget it's the EU that has restricted social mobility. The EU is beyond reform, the remainers just don't get it or get thosethose feeling the negative effects over recent times. The standards required to achieve now are so much higher to achieve aspirations. No more falling into jobs and an easy career path. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 03 Dec 17 3.22pm

Jamie always speaks well on this subject.

People in a developed and civilised society should be paid a wage you can at least survive on. You know, pay rent and food, bills and clothing. The country is failing there. Disappointing when you hear people say you have to work harder or find another job as if when they leave that job the next person stuck in that job or area of work is not going to have the same issues.

On social mobility we're seeing more apprenticeships, albeit a bit late, and that's partly because cheap eu Labour is more profitable than training our own. What we've done in this area is shameful but it's amusing when you hear the left wing moan about leaving the EU but forget it's the EU that has restricted social mobility. The EU is beyond reform, the remainers just don't get it or get thosethose feeling the negative effects over recent times.

The standards required to achieve now are so much higher to achieve aspirations. No more falling into jobs and an easy career path.

COYP

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Hrolf The Ganger 03 Dec 17 3.34pm
Originally posted by Mstrobez Well unfortunately for you we decided quite a while ago as a society that we'd attempt to introduce some form of social justice and welfare to your capitalist dream. That element of society and the people attempting to organise it has been neglected for a while now, hence the general unrest amongst the public and the emergence of a Corbyn. I'd guess that most people in the country believe that, in an economy the size of ours, everyone has the right to a high standard of education and health care at the bare minimum. Regardless of their position in the class system and the people in charge of running this should be rewarded accordingly. This is not currently the case. Crap. We have never been better off and that is due wealth and innovation created by people who did something rather than just complain about everything. There would be no 'social justice' without society and there would be no society without commerce. The bollocks I hear these days about poverty makes me sick and the idea that Jeremy Corbyn is the answer to whatever the question is supposed to be is laughable. Only the totally stupid or completely naive believe in a socialist utopia. We are living in the best time there has ever been in Britain for equality. People need to enjoy it and stop whining. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (03 Dec 2017 3.36pm)
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Hrolf The Ganger

03 Dec 17 3.34pm

Originally posted by Mstrobez

Well unfortunately for you we decided quite a while ago as a society that we'd attempt to introduce some form of social justice and welfare to your capitalist dream.

That element of society and the people attempting to organise it has been neglected for a while now, hence the general unrest amongst the public and the emergence of a Corbyn.

This is not currently the case.

Crap.

We have never been better off and that is due wealth and innovation created by people who did something rather than just complain about everything.
There would be no 'social justice' without society and there would be no society without commerce.

The bollocks I hear these days about poverty makes me sick and the idea that Jeremy Corbyn is the answer to whatever the question is supposed to be is laughable.

Only the totally stupid or completely naive believe in a socialist utopia. We are living in the best time there has ever been in Britain for equality. People need to enjoy it and stop whining.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (03 Dec 2017 3.36pm)

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 03 Dec 17 3.45pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Crap. We have never been better off and that is due wealth and innovation created by people who did something rather than just complain about everything. There would be no 'social justice' without society and there would be no society without commerce. The bollocks I hear these days about poverty makes me sick and the idea that Jeremy Corbyn is the answer to whatever the question is supposed to be is laughable. Only the totally stupid or completely naive believe in a socialist utopia. We are living in the best time there has ever been in Britain for equality. People need to enjoy it and stop whining. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (03 Dec 2017 3.36pm) Maybe the best it's ever been for racial and sexual equality, although you'd expect it to keep improving rather start worsening. But you cannot say there is 'equality' or fairness in wages or wage distribution. There's also some legislation required with rent controls and similar and unfortunately we've created housing markets that keep rising to stupid levels. The fact is that someone has to do every job in this country and they're not paying enough to live on, and having 15 in a house is no long term answer. Even if you have social mobility this needs addressing. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 03 Dec 17 3.45pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Crap.

The bollocks I hear these days about poverty makes me sick and the idea that Jeremy Corbyn is the answer to whatever the question is supposed to be is laughable.

Only the totally stupid or completely naive believe in a socialist utopia. We are living in the best time there has ever been in Britain for equality. People need to enjoy it and stop whining.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (03 Dec 2017 3.36pm)

Maybe the best it's ever been for racial and sexual equality, although you'd expect it to keep improving rather start worsening. But you cannot say there is 'equality' or fairness in wages or wage distribution. There's also some legislation required with rent controls and similar and unfortunately we've created housing markets that keep rising to stupid levels.

The fact is that someone has to do every job in this country and they're not paying enough to live on, and having 15 in a house is no long term answer. Even if you have social mobility this needs addressing.

COYP

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Hrolf The Ganger 03 Dec 17 4.06pm
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman Maybe the best it's ever been for racial and sexual equality, although you'd expect it to keep improving rather start worsening. But you cannot say there is 'equality' or fairness in wages or wage distribution. There's also some legislation required with rent controls and similar and unfortunately we've created housing markets that keep rising to stupid levels. The fact is that someone has to do every job in this country and they're not paying enough to live on, and having 15 in a house is no long term answer. Even if you have social mobility this needs addressing. Employment is almost full. People work for money, which is a lot better for them than stagnating in unemployment. The minimum wage is higher than ever. Yes, wages have stalled and that is due to immigration. Housing is an issue for the young but owning your own home was something that people only began to take for granted under Thatcher. Rents are too high and something needs to be done but things are not so bad that most people can't have a roof over their head somewhere. Most of this whining is politically driven. The rich might be getting richer, as they always will, but the 'poor' are also doing better than ever. People need a longer and wider perspective on British society.
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Hrolf The Ganger

03 Dec 17 4.06pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

Employment is almost full. People work for money, which is a lot better for them than stagnating in unemployment. The minimum wage is higher than ever.
Yes, wages have stalled and that is due to immigration.

Housing is an issue for the young but owning your own home was something that people only began to take for granted under Thatcher. Rents are too high and something needs to be done but things are not so bad that most people can't have a roof over their head somewhere.
Most of this whining is politically driven. The rich might be getting richer, as they always will, but the 'poor' are also doing better than ever. People need a longer and wider perspective on British society.

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 03 Dec 17 4.23pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Employment is almost full. People work for money, which is a lot better for them than stagnating in unemployment. The minimum wage is higher than ever. Yes, wages have stalled and that is due to immigration. Housing is an issue for the young but owning your own home was something that people only began to take for granted under Thatcher. Rents are too high and something needs to be done but things are not so bad that most people can't have a roof over their head somewhere. Most of this whining is politically driven. The rich might be getting richer, as they always will, but the 'poor' are also doing better than ever. People need a longer and wider perspective on British society. People working is better than not working but you cannot claim that there aren't people out there at ages where they should be able to meet all bills but aren't. 'The minimum wage is higher than ever'? The statement may be correct with regards to the recent minimum wage rules and time before not factored in but what and where it gets you isn't higher than ever. It's the reverse. And anybody in average salaries have little hope of moving out of home anywhere close to when people did 3 decades ago or in north European neighbouring countries. By the time a lot can actually afford private property people in the '80s would've seen their children doing A Levels or leaving school. That or parents chip in dozens of thousands on deposits. The poor are doing better than ever can't be something you hear people taking seriously when you mention in public. There are some who shouldn't be struggling sure, but there are a lot who do also. Edited by Rudi Hedman (03 Dec 2017 4.24pm) COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 03 Dec 17 4.23pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

People working is better than not working but you cannot claim that there aren't people out there at ages where they should be able to meet all bills but aren't.

'The minimum wage is higher than ever'? The statement may be correct with regards to the recent minimum wage rules and time before not factored in but what and where it gets you isn't higher than ever. It's the reverse.

And anybody in average salaries have little hope of moving out of home anywhere close to when people did 3 decades ago or in north European neighbouring countries. By the time a lot can actually afford private property people in the '80s would've seen their children doing A Levels or leaving school. That or parents chip in dozens of thousands on deposits.

The poor are doing better than ever can't be something you hear people taking seriously when you mention in public. There are some who shouldn't be struggling sure, but there are a lot who do also.

Edited by Rudi Hedman (03 Dec 2017 4.24pm)

COYP

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Hrolf The Ganger 03 Dec 17 4.57pm
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman People working is better than not working but you cannot claim that there aren't people out there at ages where they should be able to meet all bills but aren't. 'The minimum wage is higher than ever'? The statement may be correct with regards to the recent minimum wage rules and time before not factored in but what and where it gets you isn't higher than ever. It's the reverse. And anybody in average salaries have little hope of moving out of home anywhere close to when people did 3 decades ago or in north European neighbouring countries. By the time a lot can actually afford private property people in the '80s would've seen their children doing A Levels or leaving school. That or parents chip in dozens of thousands on deposits. The poor are doing better than ever can't be something you hear people taking seriously when you mention in public. There are some who shouldn't be struggling sure, but there are a lot who do also. Edited by Rudi Hedman (03 Dec 2017 4.24pm) None of the things you say are specific to now.
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Hrolf The Ganger

03 Dec 17 4.57pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

People working is better than not working but you cannot claim that there aren't people out there at ages where they should be able to meet all bills but aren't.

The poor are doing better than ever can't be something you hear people taking seriously when you mention in public. There are some who shouldn't be struggling sure, but there are a lot who do also.

Edited by Rudi Hedman (03 Dec 2017 4.24pm)

None of the things you say are specific to now.

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 03 Dec 17 5.01pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger None of the things you say are specific to now. 'The poor are doing better than ever' is a remarkable thing to think. Astounding. Who do you know agrees with you? COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 03 Dec 17 5.01pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

None of the things you say are specific to now.

'The poor are doing better than ever' is a remarkable thing to think. Astounding. Who do you know agrees with you?

COYP

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Joe Bloggs Nr Norwich 03 Dec 17 5.26pm
What a surprise! Gillian Shepherd a well known Tory also resigned, along with Milburn.
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Joe Bloggs

Nr Norwich 03 Dec 17 5.26pm

What a surprise! Gillian Shepherd a well known Tory also resigned, along with Milburn.

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Mstrobez 03 Dec 17 5.29pm
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman 'The poor are doing better than ever' is a remarkable thing to think. Astounding. Who do you know agrees with you? It's garbage beyond belief. We're the Arthur over ere!
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Mstrobez

03 Dec 17 5.29pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

'The poor are doing better than ever' is a remarkable thing to think. Astounding. Who do you know agrees with you?

It's garbage beyond belief.

We're the Arthur over ere!

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Mstrobez 03 Dec 17 5.46pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Crap. We have never been better off and that is due wealth and innovation created by people who did something rather than just complain about everything. There would be no 'social justice' without society and there would be no society without commerce. The bollocks I hear these days about poverty makes me sick and the idea that Jeremy Corbyn is the answer to whatever the question is supposed to be is laughable. Only the totally stupid or completely naive believe in a socialist utopia. We are living in the best time there has ever been in Britain for equality. People need to enjoy it and stop whining. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (03 Dec 2017 3.36pm) I'll requote my original point. "I'd guess that most people in the country believe that, in an economy the size of ours, everyone has the right to a high standard of education and health care at the bare minimum. Regardless of their position in the class system and the people in charge of running this should be rewarded accordingly. This is not currently the case." NHS waiting lists at their highest in a decade, people literally being left to rot with conditions worsening whilst they wait for some form of treatment. You can deny this is happening, but I've experienced it close to home. 80% of teachers resigning within 5 years of Qualifying due to absurd working hours and low pay - talk to one. Real wages shrinking year on year, highest minimum wage is absolutely irrelevant if the take home pay rises below inflation. Given the 3 points above please explain how my original quote is crap instead of going on a "naive libtard, never been better" rant. Perceptions of how people are addressed generally may of shifted, but as you yourself point out we live in a capitalist world so equality will always ultimately be measured by wealth. Capitalism vs socialism arguments are silly in my opinion. I'm of the belief that one cannot function properly without the other in a modern democratic society. My argument is simply that the majority who work their socks off should be afforded the right to a decent lifestyle. People who are in a position beyond their control (sick, disabled etc) should be afforded the right to some form of dignity and hope. Homelessness should not exist to the extent it currently does. These are fundamentals and there is no reason a civilised society in the 6th (or wherever we are now) largest economy in the world shouldn't be able to achieve this. You can shove your fingers in your ears and say everything is fine but if this is genuinely the best it's ever gonna get for the working and lower classes, then that's a pretty shameful indictment of 2017 Britain & the future looks pretty bleak. Edited by Mstrobez (03 Dec 2017 5.51pm) We're the Arthur over ere!
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Mstrobez

03 Dec 17 5.46pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Crap.

The bollocks I hear these days about poverty makes me sick and the idea that Jeremy Corbyn is the answer to whatever the question is supposed to be is laughable.

Only the totally stupid or completely naive believe in a socialist utopia. We are living in the best time there has ever been in Britain for equality. People need to enjoy it and stop whining.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (03 Dec 2017 3.36pm)

I'll requote my original point.

"I'd guess that most people in the country believe that, in an economy the size of ours, everyone has the right to a high standard of education and health care at the bare minimum. Regardless of their position in the class system and the people in charge of running this should be rewarded accordingly.

This is not currently the case."

NHS waiting lists at their highest in a decade, people literally being left to rot with conditions worsening whilst they wait for some form of treatment. You can deny this is happening, but I've experienced it close to home.

80% of teachers resigning within 5 years of Qualifying due to absurd working hours and low pay - talk to one.

Real wages shrinking year on year, highest minimum wage is absolutely irrelevant if the take home pay rises below inflation.

Given the 3 points above please explain how my original quote is crap instead of going on a "naive libtard, never been better" rant.

Perceptions of how people are addressed generally may of shifted, but as you yourself point out we live in a capitalist world so equality will always ultimately be measured by wealth.

Capitalism vs socialism arguments are silly in my opinion. I'm of the belief that one cannot function properly without the other in a modern democratic society. My argument is simply that the majority who work their socks off should be afforded the right to a decent lifestyle. People who are in a position beyond their control (sick, disabled etc) should be afforded the right to some form of dignity and hope. Homelessness should not exist to the extent it currently does.

These are fundamentals and there is no reason a civilised society in the 6th (or wherever we are now) largest economy in the world shouldn't be able to achieve this.

You can shove your fingers in your ears and say everything is fine but if this is genuinely the best it's ever gonna get for the working and lower classes, then that's a pretty shameful indictment of 2017 Britain & the future looks pretty bleak.

Edited by Mstrobez (03 Dec 2017 5.51pm)

We're the Arthur over ere!

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