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pefwin  Where you have to have an English ... 13 Jul 17 1.19pm |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
Would you be so amused if he had funded the UDA and the National Front? Nobody is a cund like that, err perhaps Teri May; it depends for her if they have seats in Parliament. Then she shakes the Money Tree. Everybody knows about Saudi Whabbism, and the funding. Edited by pefwin (13 Jul 2017 1.20pm) Edited by pefwin (13 Jul 2017 1.27pm)
"Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support." |
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 Stirlingsays  13 Jul 17 1.22pm |
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Rather amusing that Kermit started this threat. He thinks that Islam doesn't require reform. The problem certainly isn't really one of money. An Internet subscription doesn't cost a lot and neither does hiring a van. The deep social conservationism at the root of most Islam is the problem. The problem is far more from pakistan and to a lesser extent Bangladesh than the House of Saud. Saudi has little influence here.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| sxp55 South Norwood 13 Jul 17 1.27pm |
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let Labour bankrupt the country i say. just for bantz
@sxp55555 |
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aquickgame2  Beni = summer,Caribbean = winter 13 Jul 17 1.27pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Rather amusing that Kermit started this threat. He thinks that Islam doesn't require reform. The problem certainly isn't really one of money. An Internet subscription doesn't cost a lot and neither does hiring a van. The deep social conservationism at the root of most Islam is the problem. The problem is far more from pakistan and to a lesser extent Bangladesh than the House of Saud. Saudi has little influence here.
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| Stirlingsays 13 Jul 17 1.52pm |
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Originally posted by pefwin
To quote from the article, 'So which Islamic schools of thought run Britain’s mosques today? The influence of Saudi Arabia’s Wahhabi movement is often cited. But the Wahhabis — or Salafis as they prefer to be called — control just 6 per cent of mosques. The largest single group — the one which arguably gives Islam in Britain much of its character — is the Deobandi. It controls around 45 per cent of Britain’s mosques and nearly all the UK-based training of Islamic scholars.' A large chunk of the social conservationism in the UK comes out of the Deobandi doctrine. Wahhabism isn't a force here. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jul 2017 1.55pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 13 Jul 17 2.07pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
To quote from the article, 'So which Islamic schools of thought run Britain’s mosques today? The influence of Saudi Arabia’s Wahhabi movement is often cited. But the Wahhabis — or Salafis as they prefer to be called — control just 6 per cent of mosques. The largest single group — the one which arguably gives Islam in Britain much of its character — is the Deobandi. It controls around 45 per cent of Britain’s mosques and nearly all the UK-based training of Islamic scholars.' A large chunk of the social conservationism in the UK comes out of the Deobandi doctrine. Wahhabism isn't a force here. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jul 2017 1.55pm) Wahhabism is clearly a force, though, when it comes to online recruitment, and that's what the report was supposedly about. Granted, the House of Saud have come out publicly with great opposition to terrorist groups, but it was never suggested by experts that they themselves were funding IS, but that private donors within their country were channelling money and it wasn't being dealt with. I imagine now they have an increasing presence of IS militants in Yemen (who, of course, we have helped produce thanks to our needless, devastating bombing campaigns in the country), they'll be an awful lot more concerned about IS than before. And I'm sorry Stirling, that article is a load of bull. We are talking about 'haram' - as in, aspects of life which Imams advise shouldn't be followed, but which aren't enforced. Think like abortion in Catholicism, or sex before marriage, or divorce, or eating meat on Fridays, or.... That's why the vast majority of Muslims in this country are lovely, peace-loving, friendly people. The thing which I imagine alienates them most is people like us sitting on football forums, or writing Spectator articles, pretending we know everything about their religion. If you are really concerned about Islam in this country, go to your nearest Mosque, Deobandi, Ammadiyahh, whatever, and arrange to talk to the Imam about it. I guarantee you you'll be met with warmth and friendliness, and will be in a much better position to make a judgement on it.
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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| Lyons550 Shirley 13 Jul 17 2.12pm |
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Originally posted by serial thriller
National Security Reasons seems to be an excuse that can allow you to get away with near enough anything. I wonder if it could work in day to day life? "Miss, I can't take this test today" "Why the f*ck did you sleep with my sister you f*cking c*nt!?" That's what I love about you serial...always rational debate lol
The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World |
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| Stirlingsays 13 Jul 17 2.27pm |
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Originally posted by serial thriller
Wahhabism is clearly a force, though, when it comes to online recruitment, and that's what the report was supposedly about. Granted, the House of Saud have come out publicly with great opposition to terrorist groups, but it was never suggested by experts that they themselves were funding IS, but that private donors within their country were channelling money and it wasn't being dealt with. I imagine now they have an increasing presence of IS militants in Yemen (who, of course, we have helped produce thanks to our needless, devastating bombing campaigns in the country), they'll be an awful lot more concerned about IS than before. And I'm sorry Stirling, that article is a load of bull. We are talking about 'haram' - as in, aspects of life which Imams advise shouldn't be followed, but which aren't enforced. Think like abortion in Catholicism, or sex before marriage, or divorce, or eating meat on Fridays, or.... That's why the vast majority of Muslims in this country are lovely, peace-loving, friendly people. The thing which I imagine alienates them most is people like us sitting on football forums, or writing Spectator articles, pretending we know everything about their religion. If you are really concerned about Islam in this country, go to your nearest Mosque, Deobandi, Ammadiyahh, whatever, and arrange to talk to the Imam about it. I guarantee you you'll be met with warmth and friendliness, and will be in a much better position to make a judgement on it. Oh the hubris. Oh the simplistic assumptions. I've worked with Muslims, I've lived near Muslims, I taught Muslims. I've known good people who were Muslims and I've met people clearly alienated from western culture from it. People like you who produce crappy responses to the inherent problems we face are the biggest problem to this picture changing. You dismiss this article from a person who has in high probability spent far far longer in UK mosques than you, talking to far more Muslims than you. Wahhabism is a problem but isn't a force inside this country. That was what Kermit referred to and that's what my reply focused upon. The ability of this country to affect change within extremist parts of Islam outside of its realm is negligible and even pointless. It's like the alcoholic who hasn't admitted there is a problem. Explain the data on the attitudes of British Muslims living in the UK. On many fronts their religion pushes attitudes that are completely at odds with your ridiculous summary. Please explain.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Kermit8  Hevon 13 Jul 17 2.56pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Oh the hubris. Oh the simplistic assumptions. I've worked with Muslims, I've lived near Muslims, I taught Muslims. I've known good people who were Muslims and I've met people clearly alienated from western culture from it. People like you who produce crappy responses to the inherent problems we face are the biggest problem to this picture changing. You dismiss this article from a person who has in high probably spent far far longer in UK mosques than you, talking to far more Muslims than you. Wahhabism is a problem but isn't a force inside this country. That was what Kermit referred to and that's what my reply focused upon. The ability of this country to affect change within extremist parts of Islam outside of its realm is negligible and even pointless. It's like the alcoholic who hasn't admitted there is a problem. Explain the data on the attitudes of British Muslims living in the UK. On many fronts their religion pushes attitudes that are completely at odds with your ridiculous summary. Please explain.
Nor was Irish Republicanism in the 70's,60's and 90's. Didn't stop them taking action here bombing, did it? You have your head in the Arabian sand. 16 of the 20 9/11 hijackers were Saudi brought up on Sunni Wahhabism. Saudi has been propagating it since the 70's across the globe with all that lovely oil dosh paying for mosques and schools as long as they teach their version of Islam. It is the major conduit for the extremists of IS and suchlike. Just because they have declared Saudi an enemy now doesn't mean the road to extremist behaviour via Wahhabi/Salafism is closed. It isn't and it's getting worse.
Big chest and massive boobs |
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 13 Jul 17 3.02pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Oh the hubris. Oh the simplistic assumptions. I've worked with Muslims, I've lived near Muslims, I taught Muslims. I've known good people who were Muslims and I've met people clearly alienated from western culture from it. People like you who produce crappy responses to the inherent problems we face are the biggest problem to this picture changing. You dismiss this article from a person who has in high probably spent far far longer in UK mosques than you, talking to far more Muslims than you. Wahhabism is a problem but isn't a force inside this country. That was what Kermit referred to and that's what my reply focused upon. The ability of this country to affect change within extremist parts of Islam outside of its realm is negligible and even pointless. It's like the alcoholic who hasn't admitted there is a problem. Explain the data on the attitudes of British Muslims living in the UK. On many fronts their religion pushes attitudes that are completely at odds with your ridiculous summary. Please explain.
Ok, ive lived in a Muslim country for quite a while, but i would still say i know almost nothing about Islam, just as i would say that, despite being raised a Christian, i know almost nothing about christianity. What i've learnt is that in any situation, judging people based on the representatives of their belief - be it religion, nationality, football team etc - is bullsh*t. Some Islamic people i met judged me on the fact my country was bombing theirs, but after a while you realise your humanity has much more in common. In this country atm, muslims are seen as the group it is acceptable to judge based on a few mad clerics. Do we search hindu doctrine, or sikh doctrine, or chinese people's political ideology so vigorously for evidence that they can't integrate with our culture? Of course not, but that's the way of the world... One last point...i just finished a really great book called heavy metal islam, which documented heavy metal culture across the arabic world. It made a really interesting argument that they -the heavy metal islamists - are the radical islamists, as they're pushing the boundaries of what it means to be Muslim. IS are instead reverting to some archaic interpretation of Islam. Yet despite IS having far fewer followers, we focus so much more on them as representatives of their faith...
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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| Stirlingsays 13 Jul 17 3.14pm |
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Originally posted by serial thriller
Ok, ive lived in a Muslim country for quite a while, but i would still say i know almost nothing about Islam, just as i would say that, despite being raised a Christian, i know almost nothing about christianity. What i've learnt is that in any situation, judging people based on the representatives of their belief - be it religion, nationality, football team etc - is bullsh*t. Some Islamic people i met judged me on the fact my country was bombing theirs, but after a while you realise your humanity has much more in common. In this country atm, muslims are seen as the group it is acceptable to judge based on a few mad clerics. Do we search hindu doctrine, or sikh doctrine, or chinese people's political ideology so vigorously for evidence that they can't integrate with our culture? Of course not, but that's the way of the world... One last point...i just finished a really great book called heavy metal islam, which documented heavy metal culture across the arabic world. It made a really interesting argument that they -the heavy metal islamists - are the radical islamists, as they're pushing the boundaries of what it means to be Muslim. IS are instead reverting to some archaic interpretation of Islam. Yet despite IS having far fewer followers, we focus so much more on them as representatives of their faith... Errr....All very nice....But you haven't answered for your views in relation to actual facts about the attitudes of a significant number of Muslims in the Uk judged up against your comments in the previous post. Don't tell me that these integrationist problems are 'the way of the world' We enlarge the problems that we don't deal with. Which Islamic country were you living in by the way?
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 13 Jul 17 3.25pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
You have your head in the Arabian sand. 16 of the 20 9/11 hijackers were Saudi brought up on Sunni Wahhabism. Saudi has been propagating it since the 70's across the globe with all that lovely oil dosh paying for mosques and schools as long as they teach their version of Islam. It is the major conduit for the extremists of IS and suchlike. Just because they have declared Saudi an enemy now doesn't mean the road to extremist behaviour via Wahhabi/Salafism is closed. It isn't and it's getting worse. I've got my head in the sand??? Errr...yes Irish Republicanism was a factor here....For a start travel between Ireland and the UK wasn't an issue at all plus we would even have collection for the IRA in in Irish pubs in London in the past An area of agreement is that Wahhabism is a problem for all of us. The 9/11 attack came from individuals outside of the US but there's no complacency, there are of course plenty of individuals of concern on watch lists all around the west. To focus....like you do, solely on Wahhabism as the problem that we need to solve is a complete misunderstanding of the actual problem. It's social conservatism and western rejectionism...In extremist terms it's a small minority but still enough to have tens of thousands of people we have to worry about in this country....The problem is far wider than just one doctrine. That problem will increase as the Islamic population increases as a percentage of the UK and you Kermit....You haven't just got your head in the sand....It's in the desert. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jul 2017 3.30pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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