The rise of the alt-left

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The rise of the alt-left

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Stirlingsays 01 May 17 2.16pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Labels. People seem obsessed with them these days. It just makes people attracted to established opinions rather than forming their own. It's like being in a club, in so much as it makes people feel part of something and more important than they are. It also creates more division. True, but words are labels as well. But you are right, senseless name calling is pointless. You can't stop people from doing it but you can be honest with what you believe in. Still if you can't categorize things as being distinct from other things then what use are they? That said, I don't want to call people labels that aren't accurate. If they differ from the label they need to state how. Tim Pool said in the video that people shouldn't feel ashamed of owning their views and hence labels...if the labels correctly define what they believe in. That should be the case in a free society. It's the marketplace of ideas after all. Edited by Stirlingsays (01 May 2017 3.26pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

01 May 17 2.16pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Labels. People seem obsessed with them these days. It just makes people attracted to established opinions rather than forming their own. It's like being in a club, in so much as it makes people feel part of something and more important than they are. It also creates more division.

True, but words are labels as well. But you are right, senseless name calling is pointless. You can't stop people from doing it but you can be honest with what you believe in.

Still if you can't categorize things as being distinct from other things then what use are they? That said, I don't want to call people labels that aren't accurate. If they differ from the label they need to state how.

Tim Pool said in the video that people shouldn't feel ashamed of owning their views and hence labels...if the labels correctly define what they believe in. That should be the case in a free society.

It's the marketplace of ideas after all.

Edited by Stirlingsays (01 May 2017 3.26pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 01 May 17 2.27pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I think he described the differences between parts of the left quite well personally. Who said Corbyn supporters are 'alt-left'? Maybe a few...But I don't see Corbyn as supporting the alt-left as described. He's not against free speech. I think you are misunderstanding what he is saying. It's not as though he's invented the term. He's describing elements within anti fascist movements I think. Those types of people who close down the free speech of those they don't like...sometimes violently as we saw at Berkeley....The 'punch a Nazi' morons. Though as he correctly stated it may be true that just like the term alt-right was misapplied it will probably happen that this term will be misapplied. Some people with agendas aren't always fair. Also I think you are seriously deluded if you think 'fake news' is just pro Trump or Brexit. Surely you recognise that it's on both sides of the argument as that is human nature....and the majority of the media isn't exactly pro Trump. Didn't the the fact-checking site Snopes tell the BBC recently that they have debunked many more anti-Republican party stories than pro-Republican ones. Wasn't it breitbart thst self titled the alt right moniker?
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 01 May 17 2.27pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I think he described the differences between parts of the left quite well personally.

Who said Corbyn supporters are 'alt-left'? Maybe a few...But I don't see Corbyn as supporting the alt-left as described. He's not against free speech. I think you are misunderstanding what he is saying. It's not as though he's invented the term. He's describing elements within anti fascist movements I think. Those types of people who close down the free speech of those they don't like...sometimes violently as we saw at Berkeley....The 'punch a Nazi' morons.

Though as he correctly stated it may be true that just like the term alt-right was misapplied it will probably happen that this term will be misapplied. Some people with agendas aren't always fair.

Also I think you are seriously deluded if you think 'fake news' is just pro Trump or Brexit. Surely you recognise that it's on both sides of the argument as that is human nature....and the majority of the media isn't exactly pro Trump.

Didn't the the fact-checking site Snopes tell the BBC recently that they have debunked many more anti-Republican party stories than pro-Republican ones.

Wasn't it breitbart thst self titled the alt right moniker?

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Stirlingsays 01 May 17 3.23pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Wasn't it breitbart thst self titled the alt right moniker? It wouldn't surprise me. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

01 May 17 3.23pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Wasn't it breitbart thst self titled the alt right moniker?

It wouldn't surprise me.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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jamiemartin721 Reading 02 May 17 1.46pm
Alt Left, Alt Right - All bollocks. There is no such thing, and its really represents the same mentality as pro and anti an issue. The truth is, the further out along political spectrums you go, the more diverse and complicated parties become. Its just part of the dumbing down of everything for the convenience of a status quo, increasingly becoming less capable of understanding the importance of democratic participation, and the education necessary to make informed decisions. In truth, everything is too complex for simplistic definitions, especially in terms of public policy and state governance - For simple statements that are increasingly media and politically friendly. Its like Anti / Pro as a position. If you're absolutely pro or anti something, its a statement that irrespective of how reasonable or valid an argument is, you cannot be persuaded. Its the embracing of ignorance, that ideological views are more important than real world situations. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 02 May 17 1.46pm

Alt Left, Alt Right - All bollocks. There is no such thing, and its really represents the same mentality as pro and anti an issue.

The truth is, the further out along political spectrums you go, the more diverse and complicated parties become.

Its just part of the dumbing down of everything for the convenience of a status quo, increasingly becoming less capable of understanding the importance of democratic participation, and the education necessary to make informed decisions.

In truth, everything is too complex for simplistic definitions, especially in terms of public policy and state governance - For simple statements that are increasingly media and politically friendly.

Its like Anti / Pro as a position. If you're absolutely pro or anti something, its a statement that irrespective of how reasonable or valid an argument is, you cannot be persuaded. Its the embracing of ignorance, that ideological views are more important than real world situations.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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pefwin Where you have to have an English ... 02 May 17 1.59pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Alt Left, Alt Right - All bollocks. There is no such thing, and its really represents the same mentality as pro and anti an issue. New names old policies. Nazi, Fascist, Stalinist, Maoist. Perhaps you need to a centralist or out of the 2D spectrum to see the absurdity of both sides. "Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."
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pefwin

Where you have to have an English ... 02 May 17 1.59pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Alt Left, Alt Right - All bollocks. There is no such thing, and its really represents the same mentality as pro and anti an issue.

New names old policies.

Nazi, Fascist, Stalinist, Maoist. Perhaps you need to a centralist or out of the 2D spectrum to see the absurdity of both sides.

"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

Alert a moderator to this post

Stirlingsays 02 May 17 2.07pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Alt Left, Alt Right - All bollocks. There is no such thing, and its really represents the same mentality as pro and anti an issue. The truth is, the further out along political spectrums you go, the more diverse and complicated parties become. Its just part of the dumbing down of everything for the convenience of a status quo, increasingly becoming less capable of understanding the importance of democratic participation, and the education necessary to make informed decisions. In truth, everything is too complex for simplistic definitions, especially in terms of public policy and state governance - For simple statements that are increasingly media and politically friendly. Its like Anti / Pro as a position. If you're absolutely pro or anti something, its a statement that irrespective of how reasonable or valid an argument is, you cannot be persuaded. Its the embracing of ignorance, that ideological views are more important than real world situations. I don't really think that's fair on poor old Tim. Did you watch the video? There's a link to it on the first post. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

02 May 17 2.07pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Alt Left, Alt Right - All bollocks. There is no such thing, and its really represents the same mentality as pro and anti an issue.

The truth is, the further out along political spectrums you go, the more diverse and complicated parties become.

In truth, everything is too complex for simplistic definitions, especially in terms of public policy and state governance - For simple statements that are increasingly media and politically friendly.

I don't really think that's fair on poor old Tim.

Did you watch the video? There's a link to it on the first post.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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pefwin Where you have to have an English ... 02 May 17 2.20pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I don't really think that's fair on poor old Tim. Did you watch the video? There's a link to it on the first post. I think it is fair the names have not changed but the linkages between extreme groups have. They still hate, vehemently hate, but are now scared of different groups. "Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."
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pefwin

Where you have to have an English ... 02 May 17 2.20pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I don't really think that's fair on poor old Tim.

Did you watch the video? There's a link to it on the first post.

I think it is fair the names have not changed but the linkages between extreme groups have.

They still hate, vehemently hate, but are now scared of different groups.

"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

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Stirlingsays 02 May 17 2.22pm
Originally posted by pefwin I think it is fair the names have not changed but the linkages between extreme groups have. They still hate, vehemently hate, but are now scared of different groups. Did you watch the video? Tim Pool is there in amongst these different groups reporting on them. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

02 May 17 2.22pm

Originally posted by pefwin

I think it is fair the names have not changed but the linkages between extreme groups have.

They still hate, vehemently hate, but are now scared of different groups.

Did you watch the video?

Tim Pool is there in amongst these different groups reporting on them.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 02 May 17 2.27pm
Originally posted by pefwin New names old policies. Nazi, Fascist, Stalinist, Maoist. Perhaps you need to a centralist or out of the 2D spectrum to see the absurdity of both sides. What it is to be a national socialist is pretty much connected to its time and location...the realities of that era there.... as are most of those descriptions. Similarities can exist in general yeah....But they don't fit properly. You can use 'one size' fits all names but I don't think it really works. Perhaps you are being too harsh towards the reality that different movements are created in response to different conditions in political environments that are affected by their time and place. Edited by Stirlingsays (02 May 2017 2.27pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

02 May 17 2.27pm

Originally posted by pefwin

New names old policies.

Nazi, Fascist, Stalinist, Maoist. Perhaps you need to a centralist or out of the 2D spectrum to see the absurdity of both sides.

What it is to be a national socialist is pretty much connected to its time and location...the realities of that era there.... as are most of those descriptions.

Similarities can exist in general yeah....But they don't fit properly. You can use 'one size' fits all names but I don't think it really works.

Perhaps you are being too harsh towards the reality that different movements are created in response to different conditions in political environments that are affected by their time and place.

Edited by Stirlingsays (02 May 2017 2.27pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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jamiemartin721 Reading 02 May 17 5.53pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays What it is to be a national socialist is pretty much connected to its time and location...the realities of that era there.... as are most of those descriptions I think its tragic that people can't tell the difference between National Socialism and Fascism. Especially Neo-Nazis - that seems really odd, that most of them claim to be Nazis, but are really supporters of Fascism. If you take the racism, prejudice, murder and hate out of National Socialism its got some very salient points to make, that many people would agree with. Social programs, unions, wealth distribution, workers rights to accommodation, food, water etc restrictions on corporations and their power. Its easy to get caught up in the horrors of the genocide and horrors, but its important to remember that it wasn't all anti-Semitism, marching up and down and hating dark skinned people. It was much more about policy, social programmes, educational programs. There was a reason why it was popular with the German population (and provided resolution of serious social problems so much that people would turn a blind eye to your neighbours being 'removed'). The Nazis Party would have been horrified at the cost of rents in the modern UK. I blame the schools. Todays Neo-Nazis are just fashion statements. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 02 May 17 5.53pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

What it is to be a national socialist is pretty much connected to its time and location...the realities of that era there.... as are most of those descriptions

I think its tragic that people can't tell the difference between National Socialism and Fascism. Especially Neo-Nazis - that seems really odd, that most of them claim to be Nazis, but are really supporters of Fascism.

If you take the racism, prejudice, murder and hate out of National Socialism its got some very salient points to make, that many people would agree with. Social programs, unions, wealth distribution, workers rights to accommodation, food, water etc restrictions on corporations and their power.

Its easy to get caught up in the horrors of the genocide and horrors, but its important to remember that it wasn't all anti-Semitism, marching up and down and hating dark skinned people. It was much more about policy, social programmes, educational programs. There was a reason why it was popular with the German population (and provided resolution of serious social problems so much that people would turn a blind eye to your neighbours being 'removed').

The Nazis Party would have been horrified at the cost of rents in the modern UK.

I blame the schools. Todays Neo-Nazis are just fashion statements.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 02 May 17 6.01pm
Originally posted by pefwin New names old policies. Nazi, Fascist, Stalinist, Maoist. Perhaps you need to a centralist or out of the 2D spectrum to see the absurdity of both sides. I think its more ignorance, if you don't know the difference between National Socialism and Fascism, Marxist-Stalinism and Maoism (and how they differ from Marxism, and how Marxist theory isn't even limited to Marxists). I think its because people are lazy when it comes to history, and tend to just watch TV documentaries, rather than read a book. I also find it ironic that such people will spend a lot of time arguing about Liberal Capitalism, Free Market Capitalism, Conservative Capitalism and Socialist Capitalism.... "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 02 May 17 6.01pm

Originally posted by pefwin

New names old policies.

Nazi, Fascist, Stalinist, Maoist. Perhaps you need to a centralist or out of the 2D spectrum to see the absurdity of both sides.

I think its more ignorance, if you don't know the difference between National Socialism and Fascism, Marxist-Stalinism and Maoism (and how they differ from Marxism, and how Marxist theory isn't even limited to Marxists).

I think its because people are lazy when it comes to history, and tend to just watch TV documentaries, rather than read a book.

I also find it ironic that such people will spend a lot of time arguing about Liberal Capitalism, Free Market Capitalism, Conservative Capitalism and Socialist Capitalism....

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

Alert a moderator to this post