The Hillsborough Verdict

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The Hillsborough Verdict

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Seth On a pale blue dot 26 Apr 16 2.37pm
The fact is that a jury of 11 people heard ALL the evidence, over two years, and concluded the fans were not to blame in any way. That should put an end once and for all to the disgraceful victim-blaming which has gone on since the disaster, but some people think they know better than the jury and will continue to smear the dead and injured. I choose to believe the jury, and support the families and survivors. It could've been any of us, as football fans, who were in those pens. We should remember the dead, and respect their families for the dignified and determined way they have sought truth and justice for their loved ones. "You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down" FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16
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Seth

On a pale blue dot 26 Apr 16 2.37pm

The fact is that a jury of 11 people heard ALL the evidence, over two years, and concluded the fans were not to blame in any way. That should put an end once and for all to the disgraceful victim-blaming which has gone on since the disaster, but some people think they know better than the jury and will continue to smear the dead and injured.

I choose to believe the jury, and support the families and survivors. It could've been any of us, as football fans, who were in those pens. We should remember the dead, and respect their families for the dignified and determined way they have sought truth and justice for their loved ones.

"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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kennybrowns leftfoot Reigate 26 Apr 16 2.43pm
I'm pretty sure nobody on here has blamed the dead and injured. That would be disgusting and ridiculous. Like I said it's the jury's decision that matters and that has to be accepted... I might not agree with parts of what they decided but I accept it because that's how we do things in Britain. I'm pretty sure throughout history you have disagreed with a decision by a jury have you not? Don't waste your time with jealousy. Sometimes your ahead, sometimes your behind, the race is long. But in the end it's only with yourself!!
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kennybrowns leftfoot

Reigate 26 Apr 16 2.43pm

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I'm pretty sure nobody on here has blamed the dead and injured. That would be disgusting and ridiculous.

Like I said it's the jury's decision that matters and that has to be accepted... I might not agree with parts of what they decided but I accept it because that's how we do things in Britain.

I'm pretty sure throughout history you have disagreed with a decision by a jury have you not?

Don't waste your time with jealousy. Sometimes your ahead, sometimes your behind, the race is long. But in the end it's only with yourself!!

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Seth On a pale blue dot 26 Apr 16 2.52pm
Originally posted by kennybrowns leftfoot I'm pretty sure nobody on here has blamed the dead and injured. That would be disgusting and ridiculous. Like I said it's the jury's decision that matters and that has to be accepted... I might not agree with parts of what they decided but I accept it because that's how we do things in Britain. I'm pretty sure throughout history you have disagreed with a decision by a jury have you not? You said fans without tickets should take some blame. How do you know some of these who you allege got in without tickets didn't end up dead or injured? Smear some of the fans and you smear them all I'm afraid. Shifting focus to other historic verdicts is irrelevant. We're talking about this jury and this inquest, and continuing to recycle innuendo and smears, which have now been disproved, does you no favours. The blame lies squarely with the police, ambulance service, FA & SWFC. Only the people in court heard all the evidence, and they say the fans were not to blame in any way. That should be an end to the finger-pointing which started with the police, government and the media, and should really now stop for good. "You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down" FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16
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Seth

On a pale blue dot 26 Apr 16 2.52pm

Originally posted by kennybrowns leftfoot

I'm pretty sure nobody on here has blamed the dead and injured. That would be disgusting and ridiculous.

Like I said it's the jury's decision that matters and that has to be accepted... I might not agree with parts of what they decided but I accept it because that's how we do things in Britain.

I'm pretty sure throughout history you have disagreed with a decision by a jury have you not?

You said fans without tickets should take some blame. How do you know some of these who you allege got in without tickets didn't end up dead or injured? Smear some of the fans and you smear them all I'm afraid.

Shifting focus to other historic verdicts is irrelevant. We're talking about this jury and this inquest, and continuing to recycle innuendo and smears, which have now been disproved, does you no favours.

The blame lies squarely with the police, ambulance service, FA & SWFC. Only the people in court heard all the evidence, and they say the fans were not to blame in any way. That should be an end to the finger-pointing which started with the police, government and the media, and should really now stop for good.

"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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Seth On a pale blue dot 26 Apr 16 2.56pm
Anyway I'm not getting into yet another argument about this. The jury has spoken and that's good enough for me. Others can believe what they like. "You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down" FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16
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Seth

On a pale blue dot 26 Apr 16 2.56pm

Anyway I'm not getting into yet another argument about this. The jury has spoken and that's good enough for me. Others can believe what they like.

"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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kennybrowns leftfoot Reigate 26 Apr 16 2.59pm
It's not really irrelevant because we all at some stage have disagreed with a jury's decision or in this case parts of the decision. I respect your opinion. Mines a bit different but that's democracy for you. Don't waste your time with jealousy. Sometimes your ahead, sometimes your behind, the race is long. But in the end it's only with yourself!!
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kennybrowns leftfoot

Reigate 26 Apr 16 2.59pm

It's not really irrelevant because we all at some stage have disagreed with a jury's decision or in this case parts of the decision.

I respect your opinion. Mines a bit different but that's democracy for you.

Don't waste your time with jealousy. Sometimes your ahead, sometimes your behind, the race is long. But in the end it's only with yourself!!

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npn Crowborough 26 Apr 16 3.04pm
Originally posted by Seth You said fans without tickets should take some blame. How do you know some of these who you allege got in without tickets didn't end up dead or injured? Smear some of the fans and you smear them all I'm afraid. Shifting focus to other historic verdicts is irrelevant. We're talking about this jury and this inquest, and continuing to recycle innuendo and smears, which have now been disproved, does you no favours. The blame lies squarely with the police, ambulance service, FA & SWFC. Only the people in court heard all the evidence, and they say the fans were not to blame in any way. That should be an end to the finger-pointing which started with the police, government and the media, and should really now stop for good. I do feel the treatment of the ambulance service has been a tad harsh. Taken out of context, yes, there's a major disaster unfolding, and they haven't positioned themselves at the right end, but 20 years of experience would have said that the reason fans spill onto the pitch is to fight. The ambulance service were there for minor bumps and scrapes, and perhaps a heart attack, certainly not for something of this scale. In fact the game initially continued - nobody understood what was going on. Still, they had the evidence, and I didn't.
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npn

Crowborough 26 Apr 16 3.04pm

Originally posted by Seth

The blame lies squarely with the police, ambulance service, FA & SWFC. Only the people in court heard all the evidence, and they say the fans were not to blame in any way. That should be an end to the finger-pointing which started with the police, government and the media, and should really now stop for good.

I do feel the treatment of the ambulance service has been a tad harsh. Taken out of context, yes, there's a major disaster unfolding, and they haven't positioned themselves at the right end, but 20 years of experience would have said that the reason fans spill onto the pitch is to fight. The ambulance service were there for minor bumps and scrapes, and perhaps a heart attack, certainly not for something of this scale. In fact the game initially continued - nobody understood what was going on.

Still, they had the evidence, and I didn't.

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Ray in Houston Houston 26 Apr 16 3.48pm
Originally posted by kennybrowns leftfoot Well we don't no for certain either way but anyone who went to football in the 80s will know that Liverpool, Man Utd, Arsenal and some others were notorious for turning up to games without tickets. An inquest works on the balance of probability. I would say it was most probable that their were fans without tickets... The jury didn't though and its their opinion that counts. I'm not trying to be sensational about anything. It's just my opinion. I doubt I'm alone in it. But others will disagree. That's the beauty of free speech. I don't doubt that there were fans without tickets. As others have said here, it was rampant at that time. Of course, that means that the police would have been aware of that too, and should have planned accordingly. They should have been filtering out the ticketless fans before they got into the Leppings Lane bottleneck outside the stadium. If they'd controlled that access point, there would not have been a crush at the turnstiles which would have meant that there was no need to open the emergency gate which would have avoided the crush into the central pens. It all comes back to negligent planning and negligent decision-making when the negligent plan failed comprehensively. We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.
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Ray in Houston

Houston 26 Apr 16 3.48pm

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Originally posted by kennybrowns leftfoot

Well we don't no for certain either way but anyone who went to football in the 80s will know that Liverpool, Man Utd, Arsenal and some others were notorious for turning up to games without tickets.

An inquest works on the balance of probability. I would say it was most probable that their were fans without tickets... The jury didn't though and its their opinion that counts.

I'm not trying to be sensational about anything. It's just my opinion. I doubt I'm alone in it. But others will disagree. That's the beauty of free speech.

I don't doubt that there were fans without tickets. As others have said here, it was rampant at that time.

Of course, that means that the police would have been aware of that too, and should have planned accordingly. They should have been filtering out the ticketless fans before they got into the Leppings Lane bottleneck outside the stadium. If they'd controlled that access point, there would not have been a crush at the turnstiles which would have meant that there was no need to open the emergency gate which would have avoided the crush into the central pens.

It all comes back to negligent planning and negligent decision-making when the negligent plan failed comprehensively.

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

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MKCPFC Spain/MK 26 Apr 16 3.48pm
Originally posted by fan zhiyi How do you know that the reports about there being loads of fans without tickets are true? Wasn't that just part of the lies and cover up that everyone now accepts happened? Did they sell more tickets than the capacity then ? If everbody there had a ticket there would have been enough room for everyone and there would have been no crush. Or is this logic flawed ?
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MKCPFC

Spain/MK 26 Apr 16 3.48pm

Originally posted by fan zhiyi

How do you know that the reports about there being loads of fans without tickets are true? Wasn't that just part of the lies and cover up that everyone now accepts happened?

Did they sell more tickets than the capacity then ?
If everbody there had a ticket there would have been enough room for everyone and there would have been no crush.
Or is this logic flawed ?

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Ray in Houston Houston 26 Apr 16 4.06pm
Originally posted by MKCPFC Did they sell more tickets than the capacity then ? If everbody there had a ticket there would have been enough room for everyone and there would have been no crush. Or is this logic flawed ? The logic isn't flawed, you are simply not reading the reports as to the sequence of events that lead to the disaster - and the fact that the police knew about all these issues, had proven tactics to avoid them, all of which they failed to deploy on the day. Edited by Ray in Houston (26 Apr 2016 4.06pm) We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.
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Ray in Houston

Houston 26 Apr 16 4.06pm

Originally posted by MKCPFC

Did they sell more tickets than the capacity then ?
If everbody there had a ticket there would have been enough room for everyone and there would have been no crush.
Or is this logic flawed ?

The logic isn't flawed, you are simply not reading the reports as to the sequence of events that lead to the disaster - and the fact that the police knew about all these issues, had proven tactics to avoid them, all of which they failed to deploy on the day.

Edited by Ray in Houston (26 Apr 2016 4.06pm)

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

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kenbarr Jackson Heights, Queens, New York ... 26 Apr 16 4.06pm
Originally posted by radsyrendot I don't agree with 8,9,10,14 Blame the FA for allowing it to go ahead without a safety certificate 14 is due to the failure to declare an emergency by the police and the uncoordinated way the ambulance service responded. I agree that the FA as well as SWFC should be held responsible for 8, 9 & 10. The FA closed certain turnstiles that Liverpool fans could have used. Fanny Adams claimed it was done to preserve segregation, which I believe helped cause the crush due to lack of turnstiles. There was also a lack of supervision of the tunnel leading to the central pens, which is the responsibility of the club and the police commander. SWFC rejected calls to reconfigure the Leppings Lane turnstiles and the barriers on the terrace claiming they weren't necessary. Both the club and their engineers refused to lower the capacity of the terrance. The FA got away with murder here, there were better grounds available than Hillsborough at that time. The rearranged LFC v NFFC took place at Old Trafford. Maine Road was also available. The Independent took the FA to task in this article: [Link] The other semi, Everton v Norwich, was at Villa Park. On the subject of "ticketless fans," a video was shown concerning the opening of Exit Gate C, allowed a large number of fans waiting to get through turnstiles in. In the video, fans are seen waving their tickets to prove they should be allowed in. It was the opening of this gate that the police commander lied about to FA head Graham Kelly, claiming the fans forced it open when in fact he had ordered it open after communication with senior police officials at the scene. Edited by kenbarr (26 Apr 2016 4.20pm) Divorced...And LOVING it! VJRAM Rev. CPFC since Boxing Day 1989 CPFC 2-2 CFC Gregg Berhalter, US International & USMNT Head Coach Jill Ellis, England International & Retired USWNT Head Coach Trevor Francis, International PRAT
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kenbarr

Jackson Heights, Queens, New York ... 26 Apr 16 4.06pm

Originally posted by radsyrendot

I don't agree with 8,9,10,14 Blame the FA for allowing it to go ahead without a safety certificate

14 is due to the failure to declare an emergency by the police and the uncoordinated way the ambulance service responded. I agree that the FA as well as SWFC should be held responsible for 8, 9 & 10. The FA closed certain turnstiles that Liverpool fans could have used. Fanny Adams claimed it was done to preserve segregation, which I believe helped cause the crush due to lack of turnstiles. There was also a lack of supervision of the tunnel leading to the central pens, which is the responsibility of the club and the police commander. SWFC rejected calls to reconfigure the Leppings Lane turnstiles and the barriers on the terrace claiming they weren't necessary. Both the club and their engineers refused to lower the capacity of the terrance. The FA got away with murder here, there were better grounds available than Hillsborough at that time. The rearranged LFC v NFFC took place at Old Trafford. Maine Road was also available. The Independent took the FA to task in this article:

[Link]

The other semi, Everton v Norwich, was at Villa Park.

On the subject of "ticketless fans," a video was shown concerning the opening of Exit Gate C, allowed a large number of fans waiting to get through turnstiles in. In the video, fans are seen waving their tickets to prove they should be allowed in. It was the opening of this gate that the police commander lied about to FA head Graham Kelly, claiming the fans forced it open when in fact he had ordered it open after communication with senior police officials at the scene.

Edited by kenbarr (26 Apr 2016 4.20pm)

Divorced...And LOVING it!
VJRAM Rev.
CPFC since Boxing Day 1989 CPFC 2-2 CFC
Gregg Berhalter, US International & USMNT Head Coach
Jill Ellis, England International & Retired USWNT Head Coach
Trevor Francis, International PRAT

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Catfish Burgess Hill 26 Apr 16 4.09pm
I think some blame should be directed at those who insisted on caging people in in the first place. Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial
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Catfish

Burgess Hill 26 Apr 16 4.09pm

I think some blame should be directed at those who insisted on caging people in in the first place.

Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial

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jamiemartin721 Reading 26 Apr 16 4.10pm
Originally posted by -TUX- A good decision today for the families, the fans and the city. Heads should roll but i honestly can't help thinking they won't. 'The establishment' will once again pull out all the stops to look after their own. Almost everyone responsible will have since retired anyhow. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 26 Apr 16 4.10pm

Originally posted by -TUX-

A good decision today for the families, the fans and the city.
Heads should roll but i honestly can't help thinking they won't. 'The establishment' will once again pull out all the stops to look after their own.

Almost everyone responsible will have since retired anyhow.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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