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Osborne & Google SHOCKER

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Hoof Hearted 12 Feb 16 10.55am

Originally posted by nickgusset

That is a moot point. Yes perhaps they should have done more, but talking about what a previous labour government (who were just as neoliberal as any Tory Government)doesn't actually tackle the issue. it is up to George and co to sort it out..

It always is when we attack Labour and you rabid left wingers about hypocrisy.

Mentioning Gordon Brown's gold sale gaffe is met with "not that old chestnut".

The simple fact is, tax rules are there to be exploited and everyone tries it on from the man in the street to the corporate giant.

HMRC and the government of the day are usually not as fly or well informed/advised by the likes of Google.

Ranting at Osborne, as if it's his fault big players have created mind boggling corporate structures to limit/avoid taxation is ridiculous.

As soon as a new tax directive is pursued by our government or anyone else, the corporate lawyers and accountants are all over it with loopholes to exploit.

 

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DanH Flag SW2 12 Feb 16 10.57am Send a Private Message to DanH Add DanH as a friend

Originally posted by Only 10 a year!!

I think people need to see the bigger picture and look at how many people Google employ and how much tax is raised via PAYE/NI as well as them settling their Tax.
They are also a very good employer offering extremely good wages and conditions, their offices at Victoria are amazing.
But then again maybe we should just drive them away and let them set up somewhere else and employ people in another country.

Only employer's NIC is an actual cost on the company though, PAYE and employee's NIC is an income tax.

Employees don't have the same scope to creatively structure their affairs in order to reduce their liability. And the 3% reported is on their profits after they've taken a corporate tax deduction for all salary costs, not just on their revenue.

The public, quite rightly, just want it to be a level playing field. It's not the company's fault for using the laws to their advantage, it's the laws itself.

 

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Hoof Hearted 12 Feb 16 11.15am

Originally posted by DanH

Only employer's NIC is an actual cost on the company though, PAYE and employee's NIC is an income tax.

Employees don't have the same scope to creatively structure their affairs in order to reduce their liability. And the 3% reported is on their profits after they've taken a corporate tax deduction for all salary costs, not just on their revenue.

The public, quite rightly, just want it to be a level playing field. It's not the company's fault for using the laws to their advantage, it's the laws itself.

Dan.... you fancy yourself (literally too LOL) as a bit of an accountant no?

Do you have any ideas for designing and creating new future proof tax laws to stop Google and others like them taking the p1ss?

It's all very well criticising the existing laws but many have tried to have wordings that they thought were watertight only to find accountancy firms like KPMG creating ways round them within days of their announcement.

 

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Only 10 a year!! Flag 12 Feb 16 12.20pm Send a Private Message to Only 10 a year!! Add Only 10 a year!! as a friend

Originally posted by DanH

Only employer's NIC is an actual cost on the company though, PAYE and employee's NIC is an income tax. But it is payable due to Google employing people on very good terms and conditions.

Employees don't have the same scope to creatively structure their affairs in order to reduce their liability. And the 3% reported is on their profits after they've taken a corporate tax deduction for all salary costs, not just on their revenue.

The public, quite rightly, just want it to be a level playing field. It's not the company's fault for using the laws to their advantage, it's the laws itself.

People need to see the benefits of Google employing people in this country as a whole rather on one particular point.
Incentives are given to all sorts of companies to invest and employ in this country and as long as the benefit outweighs the negatives then surely that is ok. It is only a few weeks ago that 'The Public' were demanding the Government bailed out the steel industry to save jobs.

 

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The Sash Flag Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 12 Feb 16 12.24pm Send a Private Message to The Sash Add The Sash as a friend

Originally posted by Only 10 a year!!

I think people need to see the bigger picture and look at how many people Google employ and how much tax is raised via PAYE/NI as well as them settling their Tax.
They are also a very good employer offering extremely good wages and conditions, their offices at Victoria are amazing.
But then again maybe we should just drive them away and let them set up somewhere else and employ people in another country.

Lots of Global employers have major hubs in the UK - not only are they good employers, they provide that same PAYE / NI benefit into the coffers via their workforce - They also pay their requisite amount of tax.

If by asking them not to take the piss with their tax affairs people think they will walk away then think again - they wont do it in a million years.

 


As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014

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Stuk Flag Top half 12 Feb 16 12.34pm Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

A spokeswoman for Mr Osborne said he was travelling in a private capacity.

Great thread.

They need to find a way of taxing multinational companies on sales in the respective countries. And only allow the dodgy/clever accounting practices to take place in the one country where the HQ is based.

 


Optimistic as ever

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Only 10 a year!! Flag 12 Feb 16 12.51pm Send a Private Message to Only 10 a year!! Add Only 10 a year!! as a friend

Originally posted by The Sash

Lots of Global employers have major hubs in the UK - not only are they good employers, they provide that same PAYE / NI benefit into the coffers via their workforce - They also pay their requisite amount of tax.

If by asking them not to take the piss with their tax affairs people think they will walk away then think again - they wont do it in a million years.


HSBC have moved a huge amount of their workforce to Hong Kong so I am not sure its right to be complacent.

I have worked for a few small to medium sized companies over the years and arranged 'deals' over VAT and Tax, whether this is correct or not those deals kept companies afloat and people in jobs and put money into the Government coffers that they might not have got if they had been hard nosed.

I am sure there were a lot of things taken into consideration including the historical nature of the debt, is it right? not strictly but anyone involved in business or finance knows sometimes you have to negotiate to get deals done and move on.

 

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Mr Palaceman Flag 12 Feb 16 12.51pm Send a Private Message to Mr Palaceman Add Mr Palaceman as a friend

Originally posted by robdave2k

Ok, so how is

a. A country going to attract investment when being able to set your own tax rates is a major way of doing this?

b. A company does 50% of it's business in one country and 10% each in 5 others, but they all get the same share of the pot?

It might well lead to companies paying tax, but all you will do is replace corporate tax avoidance with a reverse Nation based tax non-avoidance - every nation wanting an equal piece of the pie even if their roles are not equal.

From the company's point of view, this would make it easier. They would know exactly what they have to pay in tax. In addition if a global company wanted to expand into a country, it could do that without increasing it's tax burden, making it attractive to expand and employ people globally.

It would incentivise nations to attract global companies so they could get a share of that global pot. Which in the case of some global companies is billions. Some countries have corporate tax rates so low that the only benefit they get is the handful of people they employ in that country. With my system a each nation would get some revenue from this world company as well as the employment.

National corporate tax rate setting has been a way of attracting companies but it doesn't work. You set a rate and then another country offers a lower rate which is what the problem is in the first place, some countries set a rate so low to get the employment and these companies end up hardly paying anything to anyone, because each nation is competing with is neighbour.

In regards the share of the pot for each country, the problem that is created by each country trying to work out how much tax to charge has lead to the the situation we face now, with companies able to move or hide revenue by claming that they don't do much business in the host country.

Say, as you point out a company does 50% in one country and 10% in the others, the country where the 50% is done will get other benefits, more business in the 50% country, will relate to more employment in that country, with the company not having to worry about how much tax it will pay in one country as opposed to another. This will save that company money as well as the country trying to collect tax.

The share of the pot element could maybe be tweeked in some way if it turms out truly unfair but my suggestion aims to simplify the system for both host nations and companies alike. Encourage expansion and growth by making it easier for companies to set up in many different countries and also it would focus countries wanting corporate investment to use other ways, such as infrastructure improvement, skilled work force, pay rates etc to attract investment.

I'm not a tax expert, this is just an idea. It may have some flaws, I don't know but I think the principle is a good one. We need to treat global companies as just that, global. Imagine you have 50 Corporates all doing business in a particular country. That would add up to some serious tax income for that country. Right now, no one really gets anything at all and we all lose out.

Forcing companpies to pay, 15% here and 2% there and so on ends up with no one getting anything. IT has taken 10 years for our government to get just 130 million out of Google and at what cost to HMRC. What a joke.

 


"You can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead"

Stan Laurel

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The Sash Flag Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 12 Feb 16 1.13pm Send a Private Message to The Sash Add The Sash as a friend

Originally posted by Only 10 a year!!


HSBC have moved a huge amount of their workforce to Hong Kong so I am not sure its right to be complacent.

I have worked for a few small to medium sized companies over the years and arranged 'deals' over VAT and Tax, whether this is correct or not those deals kept companies afloat and people in jobs and put money into the Government coffers that they might not have got if they had been hard nosed.

I am sure there were a lot of things taken into consideration including the historical nature of the debt, is it right? not strictly but anyone involved in business or finance knows sometimes you have to negotiate to get deals done and move on.

Actually I have a of of insight into what HSBC are doing currently, especially property wise and despite all of the sabre rattling of last year about them pissing off to the Far East or Frankfurt they are currently hoovering up as much UK and London space as they can...

 


As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014

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Only 10 a year!! Flag 12 Feb 16 1.20pm Send a Private Message to Only 10 a year!! Add Only 10 a year!! as a friend

Originally posted by The Sash

Actually I have a of of insight into what HSBC are doing currently, especially property wise and despite all of the sabre rattling of last year about them pissing off to the Far East or Frankfurt they are currently hoovering up as much UK and London space as they can...

I know someone very high up in HR there :-)

Anyway I have said my bit and I am out, it is a complex issue and I am not sure it has as clearer cut answer as some would want it to have.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards robdave2k Flag 12 Feb 16 2.19pm

Originally posted by Mr Palaceman

From the company's point of view, this would make it easier. They would know exactly what they have to pay in tax. In addition if a global company wanted to expand into a country, it could do that without increasing it's tax burden, making it attractive to expand and employ people globally.

It would incentivise nations to attract global companies so they could get a share of that global pot. Which in the case of some global companies is billions. Some countries have corporate tax rates so low that the only benefit they get is the handful of people they employ in that country. With my system a each nation would get some revenue from this world company as well as the employment.

National corporate tax rate setting has been a way of attracting companies but it doesn't work. You set a rate and then another country offers a lower rate which is what the problem is in the first place, some countries set a rate so low to get the employment and these companies end up hardly paying anything to anyone, because each nation is competing with is neighbour.

In regards the share of the pot for each country, the problem that is created by each country trying to work out how much tax to charge has lead to the the situation we face now, with companies able to move or hide revenue by claming that they don't do much business in the host country.

Say, as you point out a company does 50% in one country and 10% in the others, the country where the 50% is done will get other benefits, more business in the 50% country, will relate to more employment in that country, with the company not having to worry about how much tax it will pay in one country as opposed to another. This will save that company money as well as the country trying to collect tax.

The share of the pot element could maybe be tweeked in some way if it turms out truly unfair but my suggestion aims to simplify the system for both host nations and companies alike. Encourage expansion and growth by making it easier for companies to set up in many different countries and also it would focus countries wanting corporate investment to use other ways, such as infrastructure improvement, skilled work force, pay rates etc to attract investment.

I'm not a tax expert, this is just an idea. It may have some flaws, I don't know but I think the principle is a good one. We need to treat global companies as just that, global. Imagine you have 50 Corporates all doing business in a particular country. That would add up to some serious tax income for that country. Right now, no one really gets anything at all and we all lose out.

Forcing companpies to pay, 15% here and 2% there and so on ends up with no one getting anything. IT has taken 10 years for our government to get just 130 million out of Google and at what cost to HMRC. What a joke.

How?

You've essentially just created a tax version of the EU. Which i'd wager is a damn sight more corrupt than corporate tax avoidance.

Edited by robdave2k (12 Feb 2016 2.21pm)

 

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Mr Palaceman Flag 12 Feb 16 2.35pm Send a Private Message to Mr Palaceman Add Mr Palaceman as a friend

Originally posted by robdave2k

How?

You've essentially just created a tax version of the EU. Which i'd wager is a damn sight more corrupt than corporate tax avoidance.

Edited by robdave2k (12 Feb 2016 2.21pm)

As to how, well, nations would know that they would get a share of the tax pot of the various companies that trade in their nation. Also, if all companies were obliged to pay their portion at what ever rate was set internationally there would be a lot more money floating around for nations to claim.

How is it like a tax version of the EU? I don't quite get your point there.

 


"You can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead"

Stan Laurel

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