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matt_himself Matataland 03 Nov 15 10.31pm | |
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Quote leifandersonshair at 03 Nov 2015 7.08pm
The politics and the system work- but, as Serial notes, state socialism is unsustainable in the current global climate of unfettered capitalism. Just as, in a world of successful socialist states, the single capitalist country would inevitably fail. Calling socialism 'mumbo jumbo' is lazy and no real argument. Capitalism is a bunch of old hogwash. See? I can do it too!
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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Bert the Head Epsom 03 Nov 15 11.29pm | |
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Quote matt_himself at 03 Nov 2015 2.40am
Economy in worst state since the 1940's: Viva la revolution!
Also there are a number of countries where the poor are much worse off but because they follow Capitalism no one points the finger. The infant mortality rate, for example. is lower in Venezuela than in Paraguay and so is absolute poverty. No one complains about poverty in Paraguay though. Perhaps City AM will publish a story on Paraguay as another example of capitalism failing? There are hundreds of countries in the world that follow Capitalism but are dirt poor yet the system itself is never questioned.
Edited by Bert the Head (03 Nov 2015 11.29pm)
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matt_himself Matataland 04 Nov 15 6.40am | |
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Quote Bert the Head at 03 Nov 2015 11.29pm
Quote matt_himself at 03 Nov 2015 2.40am
Economy in worst state since the 1940's: Viva la revolution!
Also there are a number of countries where the poor are much worse off but because they follow Capitalism no one points the finger. The infant mortality rate, for example. is lower in Venezuela than in Paraguay and so is absolute poverty. No one complains about poverty in Paraguay though. Perhaps City AM will publish a story on Paraguay as another example of capitalism failing? There are hundreds of countries in the world that follow Capitalism but are dirt poor yet the system itself is never questioned.
Edited by Bert the Head (03 Nov 2015 11.29pm) I do apologise but I do not follow your gibberish in your first paragraph. I have not overlooked anything. The Venezuelan government has pursued a social engineering policy, which has cost billions and is based solely upon the price of oil. They have not diversified their economy or have taken measures to reduce the effects of an oil price shock on their economy. The result is that basic commodities are scarce and because of their foolish foreign policy & reckless behaviour towards foreign companies, no one wants to trade in the country. This means people will suffer, financially and health wise as foods & medicines are unavailable. It is a criminal act but as you are a leftie darling, I am sure you blame the U.S., big business or bankers for this horrible situation rather than the real culprits in the Venezuelan government.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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chris123 hove actually 04 Nov 15 7.11am | |
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Quote Bert the Head at 03 Nov 2015 11.29pm
Quote matt_himself at 03 Nov 2015 2.40am
Economy in worst state since the 1940's: Viva la revolution!
Also there are a number of countries where the poor are much worse off but because they follow Capitalism no one points the finger. The infant mortality rate, for example. is lower in Venezuela than in Paraguay and so is absolute poverty. No one complains about poverty in Paraguay though. Perhaps City AM will publish a story on Paraguay as another example of capitalism failing? There are hundreds of countries in the world that follow Capitalism but are dirt poor yet the system itself is never questioned.
Edited by Bert the Head (03 Nov 2015 11.29pm)
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jamiemartin721 Reading 04 Nov 15 8.14am | |
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Quote matt_himself at 03 Nov 2015 10.31pm
Quote leifandersonshair at 03 Nov 2015 7.08pm
The politics and the system work- but, as Serial notes, state socialism is unsustainable in the current global climate of unfettered capitalism. Just as, in a world of successful socialist states, the single capitalist country would inevitably fail. Calling socialism 'mumbo jumbo' is lazy and no real argument. Capitalism is a bunch of old hogwash. See? I can do it too!
Venezuela would probably fit that bill. Do you include Sweden?
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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matt_himself Matataland 04 Nov 15 8.26am | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Nov 2015 8.14am
Quote matt_himself at 03 Nov 2015 10.31pm
Quote leifandersonshair at 03 Nov 2015 7.08pm
The politics and the system work- but, as Serial notes, state socialism is unsustainable in the current global climate of unfettered capitalism. Just as, in a world of successful socialist states, the single capitalist country would inevitably fail. Calling socialism 'mumbo jumbo' is lazy and no real argument. Capitalism is a bunch of old hogwash. See? I can do it too!
Venezuela would probably fit that bill. Do you include Sweden?
Please provide evidence that Venezuela is democratic. From everything I have read, the government there is doing a lot of things to restrict freedom that if they happened elsewhere, you and your sort would be up in arms over. Sweden isn't socialist. You can delude yourself that the 'Nordic model' is socialism but it clearly isn't. It is a free market economy, highly taxed and with a social safety net. It is not socialist by definition.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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serial thriller The Promised Land 04 Nov 15 8.45am | |
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Quote matt_himself at 03 Nov 2015 5.24pm
Quote serial thriller at 03 Nov 2015 5.04pm
My reading of the situation in Venezuela is this. Since the fall of the Berlin wall and the expansion of global capitalism in to virtually every corner of the globe, state Socialism has faced a two-fold problem in terms of maintaining itself. Either it attempts to fight against the tide, building nationalist movements like you saw in France in the 80s or Corbyn at the moment, which push for socialist policies within a framework of global capitalism. This almost inevitably leads to compromise and disappointment, especially if the grassroots movement that propel them fade away. The other option is the Venezuelan model of becoming a pretty insular society, relying on funding via a high level export. You see it in Scandanavia to an extent as well. Problem is, once that export evaporates or demand goes down, you're pretty f*cked. I actually think in the past few decades Venezuela has done some brilliant things for its people, and been relatively democratic and open in the process. But ultimately without a concerted global move away from capitalism, it is hard to see a way of making it stick. The problem is that the politics and the system doesn't work. Everyone knows that this 'mumbo jumbo' is simply an expensive social engineering project which is doomed to failure from the start. Also, I guess its which country you compare the country with when calling it 'relatively democratic'. Are you using the DPRK as the comparison model?
The link you posted, however, is fairly interesting. From what I've read, the political situation in Venezuela is certainly at breaking point, but what that article completely fails to identify is the other side of the story. The other side of the story is that democracy is incredibly difficult to maintain in Venezuela because the opposition seem to have such a total disregard for it. The 2014 US Federal reserve gave $5 million to opposition groups in Venezuela, while coups are commonplace. Even after Maduro was narrowly elected in 2013, there was an attempted coup, despite independent bodies suggesting it was a fair and transparent election. This isn't to suggest that Venezuela is some model for democratic socialism, but the lack of balance in that piece is questionable. And when I talk about relatively, I'll give you a couple of examples. Look at the recent Turkish elections, in a country often cited as a beacon of thriving capitalism. The day before the election, the government closed down the major opposition news channel; added to that, Turkey has more journalists in jail than any other country in the world, and even an 11 year old child was threatened with legal action by the government after criticising Erdogan on facebook. Meanwhile, the June attacks on rival Kurdish party HQ have gone completely unpunished, the government reentered combat with the PKK days before the election, despite the latter stating their desire for peace until the elections were concluded. Police violence, particularly in Kurdish areas, on election day was rife, and Erdogan now hopes to push through a law to transfer power away from parliament and towards himself. Or perhaps a better parallel to Venezuela would be Congo, a resource rich nation that has embraced Capitalism, and is now one of the fastest growing economies on the planet...even while over half of its people don't have access to clean drinking water.
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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matt_himself Matataland 04 Nov 15 9.02am | |
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Quote serial thriller at 04 Nov 2015 8.45am
Quote matt_himself at 03 Nov 2015 5.24pm
Quote serial thriller at 03 Nov 2015 5.04pm
My reading of the situation in Venezuela is this. Since the fall of the Berlin wall and the expansion of global capitalism in to virtually every corner of the globe, state Socialism has faced a two-fold problem in terms of maintaining itself. Either it attempts to fight against the tide, building nationalist movements like you saw in France in the 80s or Corbyn at the moment, which push for socialist policies within a framework of global capitalism. This almost inevitably leads to compromise and disappointment, especially if the grassroots movement that propel them fade away. The other option is the Venezuelan model of becoming a pretty insular society, relying on funding via a high level export. You see it in Scandanavia to an extent as well. Problem is, once that export evaporates or demand goes down, you're pretty f*cked. I actually think in the past few decades Venezuela has done some brilliant things for its people, and been relatively democratic and open in the process. But ultimately without a concerted global move away from capitalism, it is hard to see a way of making it stick. The problem is that the politics and the system doesn't work. Everyone knows that this 'mumbo jumbo' is simply an expensive social engineering project which is doomed to failure from the start. Also, I guess its which country you compare the country with when calling it 'relatively democratic'. Are you using the DPRK as the comparison model?
The link you posted, however, is fairly interesting. From what I've read, the political situation in Venezuela is certainly at breaking point, but what that article completely fails to identify is the other side of the story. The other side of the story is that democracy is incredibly difficult to maintain in Venezuela because the opposition seem to have such a total disregard for it. The 2014 US Federal reserve gave million to opposition groups in Venezuela, while coups are commonplace. Even after Maduro was narrowly elected in 2013, there was an attempted coup, despite independent bodies suggesting it was a fair and transparent election. This isn't to suggest that Venezuela is some model for democratic socialism, but the lack of balance in that piece is questionable. And when I talk about relatively, I'll give you a couple of examples. Look at the recent Turkish elections, in a country often cited as a beacon of thriving capitalism. The day before the election, the government closed down the major opposition news channel; added to that, Turkey has more journalists in jail than any other country in the world, and even an 11 year old child was threatened with legal action by the government after criticising Erdogan on facebook. Meanwhile, the June attacks on rival Kurdish party HQ have gone completely unpunished, the government reentered combat with the PKK days before the election, despite the latter stating their desire for peace until the elections were concluded. Police violence, particularly in Kurdish areas, on election day was rife, and Erdogan now hopes to push through a law to transfer power away from parliament and towards himself. Or perhaps a better parallel to Venezuela would be Congo, a resource rich nation that has embraced Capitalism, and is now one of the fastest growing economies on the planet...even while over half of its people don't have access to clean drinking water. Of course, it's the Venezuelan oppositions fault that democracy and independent public bodies are being suppressed. And I ask you this, if a coup was launched against a right wing government that was suppressing democracy, would you support it or bemoan the fact that the opposition 'were not taking democracy seriously'?
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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serial thriller The Promised Land 04 Nov 15 9.10am | |
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Quote matt_himself at 04 Nov 2015 9.02am
Quote serial thriller at 04 Nov 2015 8.45am
Quote matt_himself at 03 Nov 2015 5.24pm
Quote serial thriller at 03 Nov 2015 5.04pm
My reading of the situation in Venezuela is this. Since the fall of the Berlin wall and the expansion of global capitalism in to virtually every corner of the globe, state Socialism has faced a two-fold problem in terms of maintaining itself. Either it attempts to fight against the tide, building nationalist movements like you saw in France in the 80s or Corbyn at the moment, which push for socialist policies within a framework of global capitalism. This almost inevitably leads to compromise and disappointment, especially if the grassroots movement that propel them fade away. The other option is the Venezuelan model of becoming a pretty insular society, relying on funding via a high level export. You see it in Scandanavia to an extent as well. Problem is, once that export evaporates or demand goes down, you're pretty f*cked. I actually think in the past few decades Venezuela has done some brilliant things for its people, and been relatively democratic and open in the process. But ultimately without a concerted global move away from capitalism, it is hard to see a way of making it stick. The problem is that the politics and the system doesn't work. Everyone knows that this 'mumbo jumbo' is simply an expensive social engineering project which is doomed to failure from the start. Also, I guess its which country you compare the country with when calling it 'relatively democratic'. Are you using the DPRK as the comparison model?
The link you posted, however, is fairly interesting. From what I've read, the political situation in Venezuela is certainly at breaking point, but what that article completely fails to identify is the other side of the story. The other side of the story is that democracy is incredibly difficult to maintain in Venezuela because the opposition seem to have such a total disregard for it. The 2014 US Federal reserve gave million to opposition groups in Venezuela, while coups are commonplace. Even after Maduro was narrowly elected in 2013, there was an attempted coup, despite independent bodies suggesting it was a fair and transparent election. This isn't to suggest that Venezuela is some model for democratic socialism, but the lack of balance in that piece is questionable. And when I talk about relatively, I'll give you a couple of examples. Look at the recent Turkish elections, in a country often cited as a beacon of thriving capitalism. The day before the election, the government closed down the major opposition news channel; added to that, Turkey has more journalists in jail than any other country in the world, and even an 11 year old child was threatened with legal action by the government after criticising Erdogan on facebook. Meanwhile, the June attacks on rival Kurdish party HQ have gone completely unpunished, the government reentered combat with the PKK days before the election, despite the latter stating their desire for peace until the elections were concluded. Police violence, particularly in Kurdish areas, on election day was rife, and Erdogan now hopes to push through a law to transfer power away from parliament and towards himself. Or perhaps a better parallel to Venezuela would be Congo, a resource rich nation that has embraced Capitalism, and is now one of the fastest growing economies on the planet...even while over half of its people don't have access to clean drinking water. Of course, it's the Venezuelan oppositions fault that democracy and independent public bodies are being suppressed. And I ask you this, if a coup was launched against a right wing government that was suppressing democracy, would you support it or bemoan the fact that the opposition 'were not taking democracy seriously'?
I'd never support a coup, it's a full proletarian revolution or nothing
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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matt_himself Matataland 04 Nov 15 9.35am | |
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Quote serial thriller at 04 Nov 2015 9.10am
Quote matt_himself at 04 Nov 2015 9.02am
Quote serial thriller at 04 Nov 2015 8.45am
Quote matt_himself at 03 Nov 2015 5.24pm
Quote serial thriller at 03 Nov 2015 5.04pm
My reading of the situation in Venezuela is this. Since the fall of the Berlin wall and the expansion of global capitalism in to virtually every corner of the globe, state Socialism has faced a two-fold problem in terms of maintaining itself. Either it attempts to fight against the tide, building nationalist movements like you saw in France in the 80s or Corbyn at the moment, which push for socialist policies within a framework of global capitalism. This almost inevitably leads to compromise and disappointment, especially if the grassroots movement that propel them fade away. The other option is the Venezuelan model of becoming a pretty insular society, relying on funding via a high level export. You see it in Scandanavia to an extent as well. Problem is, once that export evaporates or demand goes down, you're pretty f*cked. I actually think in the past few decades Venezuela has done some brilliant things for its people, and been relatively democratic and open in the process. But ultimately without a concerted global move away from capitalism, it is hard to see a way of making it stick. The problem is that the politics and the system doesn't work. Everyone knows that this 'mumbo jumbo' is simply an expensive social engineering project which is doomed to failure from the start. Also, I guess its which country you compare the country with when calling it 'relatively democratic'. Are you using the DPRK as the comparison model?
The link you posted, however, is fairly interesting. From what I've read, the political situation in Venezuela is certainly at breaking point, but what that article completely fails to identify is the other side of the story. The other side of the story is that democracy is incredibly difficult to maintain in Venezuela because the opposition seem to have such a total disregard for it. The 2014 US Federal reserve gave million to opposition groups in Venezuela, while coups are commonplace. Even after Maduro was narrowly elected in 2013, there was an attempted coup, despite independent bodies suggesting it was a fair and transparent election. This isn't to suggest that Venezuela is some model for democratic socialism, but the lack of balance in that piece is questionable. And when I talk about relatively, I'll give you a couple of examples. Look at the recent Turkish elections, in a country often cited as a beacon of thriving capitalism. The day before the election, the government closed down the major opposition news channel; added to that, Turkey has more journalists in jail than any other country in the world, and even an 11 year old child was threatened with legal action by the government after criticising Erdogan on facebook. Meanwhile, the June attacks on rival Kurdish party HQ have gone completely unpunished, the government reentered combat with the PKK days before the election, despite the latter stating their desire for peace until the elections were concluded. Police violence, particularly in Kurdish areas, on election day was rife, and Erdogan now hopes to push through a law to transfer power away from parliament and towards himself. Or perhaps a better parallel to Venezuela would be Congo, a resource rich nation that has embraced Capitalism, and is now one of the fastest growing economies on the planet...even while over half of its people don't have access to clean drinking water. Of course, it's the Venezuelan oppositions fault that democracy and independent public bodies are being suppressed. And I ask you this, if a coup was launched against a right wing government that was suppressing democracy, would you support it or bemoan the fact that the opposition 'were not taking democracy seriously'?
I'd never support a coup, it's a full proletarian revolution or nothing
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 04 Nov 15 10.54am | |
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Quote matt_himself at 04 Nov 2015 8.26am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Nov 2015 8.14am
Quote matt_himself at 03 Nov 2015 10.31pm
Quote leifandersonshair at 03 Nov 2015 7.08pm
The politics and the system work- but, as Serial notes, state socialism is unsustainable in the current global climate of unfettered capitalism. Just as, in a world of successful socialist states, the single capitalist country would inevitably fail. Calling socialism 'mumbo jumbo' is lazy and no real argument. Capitalism is a bunch of old hogwash. See? I can do it too!
Venezuela would probably fit that bill. Do you include Sweden?
Please provide evidence that Venezuela is democratic. From everything I have read, the government there is doing a lot of things to restrict freedom that if they happened elsewhere, you and your sort would be up in arms over. Sweden isn't socialist. You can delude yourself that the 'Nordic model' is socialism but it clearly isn't. It is a free market economy, highly taxed and with a social safety net. It is not socialist by definition. Indeed, but its still democratic. In the same way we're democratic, whilst fitting into a system that favours the dominant party. We have a system where 15% of the electorate (roughly) vote for the Greens and UKIP (they got a seat each) - Hardly a fair model when you consider the votes the Liberal Democrats received was at least half that, and they got 8 seats. Hardly a fair system either. Sweden
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 04 Nov 15 10.55am | |
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Quote serial thriller at 04 Nov 2015 9.10am
Quote matt_himself at 04 Nov 2015 9.02am
Quote serial thriller at 04 Nov 2015 8.45am
Quote matt_himself at 03 Nov 2015 5.24pm
Quote serial thriller at 03 Nov 2015 5.04pm
My reading of the situation in Venezuela is this. Since the fall of the Berlin wall and the expansion of global capitalism in to virtually every corner of the globe, state Socialism has faced a two-fold problem in terms of maintaining itself. Either it attempts to fight against the tide, building nationalist movements like you saw in France in the 80s or Corbyn at the moment, which push for socialist policies within a framework of global capitalism. This almost inevitably leads to compromise and disappointment, especially if the grassroots movement that propel them fade away. The other option is the Venezuelan model of becoming a pretty insular society, relying on funding via a high level export. You see it in Scandanavia to an extent as well. Problem is, once that export evaporates or demand goes down, you're pretty f*cked. I actually think in the past few decades Venezuela has done some brilliant things for its people, and been relatively democratic and open in the process. But ultimately without a concerted global move away from capitalism, it is hard to see a way of making it stick. The problem is that the politics and the system doesn't work. Everyone knows that this 'mumbo jumbo' is simply an expensive social engineering project which is doomed to failure from the start. Also, I guess its which country you compare the country with when calling it 'relatively democratic'. Are you using the DPRK as the comparison model?
The link you posted, however, is fairly interesting. From what I've read, the political situation in Venezuela is certainly at breaking point, but what that article completely fails to identify is the other side of the story. The other side of the story is that democracy is incredibly difficult to maintain in Venezuela because the opposition seem to have such a total disregard for it. The 2014 US Federal reserve gave million to opposition groups in Venezuela, while coups are commonplace. Even after Maduro was narrowly elected in 2013, there was an attempted coup, despite independent bodies suggesting it was a fair and transparent election. This isn't to suggest that Venezuela is some model for democratic socialism, but the lack of balance in that piece is questionable. And when I talk about relatively, I'll give you a couple of examples. Look at the recent Turkish elections, in a country often cited as a beacon of thriving capitalism. The day before the election, the government closed down the major opposition news channel; added to that, Turkey has more journalists in jail than any other country in the world, and even an 11 year old child was threatened with legal action by the government after criticising Erdogan on facebook. Meanwhile, the June attacks on rival Kurdish party HQ have gone completely unpunished, the government reentered combat with the PKK days before the election, despite the latter stating their desire for peace until the elections were concluded. Police violence, particularly in Kurdish areas, on election day was rife, and Erdogan now hopes to push through a law to transfer power away from parliament and towards himself. Or perhaps a better parallel to Venezuela would be Congo, a resource rich nation that has embraced Capitalism, and is now one of the fastest growing economies on the planet...even while over half of its people don't have access to clean drinking water. Of course, it's the Venezuelan oppositions fault that democracy and independent public bodies are being suppressed. And I ask you this, if a coup was launched against a right wing government that was suppressing democracy, would you support it or bemoan the fact that the opposition 'were not taking democracy seriously'?
I'd never support a coup, it's a full proletarian revolution or nothing
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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