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Leicestershireeagle South Leicestershire 29 Jan 14 1.41pm | |
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Quote regal_eagle at 29 Jan 2014 1.32pm
Quote Leicestershireeagle at 29 Jan 2014 1.09pm
Quote regal_eagle at 29 Jan 2014 1.05pm
If there was a player or member of staff who played for or coached the 'amateur' AND 'pro' team, would that be link enough? Given that a number of the team played in the First International match ever, and helped to form the first FA Cup, I think we should be recognising what the original team did by putting the original date of formation of Crystal Palace on our badge/shirt. Given any available information, I can't see any reason why the amateur team should be considered the same club that exists today and was founded in 1905? Not being rude mate, but where are you getting your information if you didn't know we were one of the FA founding members..? We weren't, CPFC 1861 were. I'm digging all over the place at the moment, mainly reaffirming what I already knew/thought. Not being funny, but no one here can recall the gap between the two clubs, so digging around with available information is the best any of us can do. I'm not shamed to say I didn't know that about founding the FA; I don't and won't know everything about this club and never claimed to. I knew they were different entities from word go though, and nothing I can find suggests they should be considered one and the same.
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Beastie 29 Jan 14 1.43pm | |
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Quote Leicestershireeagle at 29 Jan 2014 1.23pm
I'm not saying they shouldn't be linked, I'm saying they are not the same entity, and thus we can't claim to have formed in 1861. Of course but I think it's fair to say the club was re-formed in 1905.
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Tidd99 East Sussex 29 Jan 14 1.46pm | |
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I love the idea of linked with the older crystal palace team I think it would be great for the club but not sure what rules govern this whether we can just suddenly declare there history as ours Edited by Tidd99 (29 Jan 2014 6.24pm)
Wilfred Zaha single handedly firing Palace to Wembely! |
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regal_eagle somewhere 29 Jan 14 6.14pm | |
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Quote Leicestershireeagle at 29 Jan 2014 1.41pm
We weren't, CPFC 1861 were. I'm digging all over the place at the moment, mainly reaffirming what I already knew/thought. Not being funny, but no one here can recall the gap between the two clubs, so digging around with available information is the best any of us can do. I'm not shamed to say I didn't know that about founding the FA; I don't and won't know everything about this club and never claimed to. I knew they were different entities from word go though, and nothing I can find suggests they should be considered one and the same. From what you've said, and not wanting to start an argument, there are 2 problems with your research LE: Any GCSE History student will tell you there are primary, secondary and tertiary forms of evidence, and without first hand evidence of someone playing for both teams, official team sheets and staff member sheets should be assessed..which I doubt you, or any one else for that matter has done, and without that it's all just conjecture, apart from the 2 Facts we have: 1) There WAS a team by the name of Crystal Palace playing in 'our' area from 1861-1876 Whether or not there is a solid link between the two would require proper investigation, looking at all original documents, not just a quick google/wiki search. Other teams, for instance Arsenal, have changed their name (originally Dial Square) numerous times, not to mention location and essentially fan-base, whereas we have stayed in the same area and retained the name.
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Tidd99 East Sussex 29 Jan 14 6.22pm | |
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Quote Tidd99 at 29 Jan 2014 1.46pm
I love the idea of linked with the older crystal palace team I think it would be great for the club but not sure what rules govern this whether we can just suddenly declare there history as ours
Wilfred Zaha single handedly firing Palace to Wembely! |
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adrian b Landrindod, Wales 29 Jan 14 6.35pm | |
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Tyhe problem is there was never a place called Crystal Palace way back in 1860. It was Upper Norwood and the Hyde Park Exhibition was located there once it was dismantled in about 1852. That was called the national exhibition centre. But it did look like a Cystal Palace and so the name then stuck, as The Crystal Palace. The men who stuck it all together got together to play soccer and asked the football club from where they came from to donate shirts. That was Aston Villa, hence the Claret and Blue, but this works teams played in Upper Norwood. No real connection with a team called Crystal Palace. Pity really as 1905 is a late start for such a great club!
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regal_eagle somewhere 29 Jan 14 6.59pm | |
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Quote adrian b at 29 Jan 2014 6.35pm
The men who stuck it all together got together to play soccer and asked the football club from where they came from to donate shirts.
You're nearly there, but not quite right.
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Leicestershireeagle South Leicestershire 29 Jan 14 7.03pm | |
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Quote regal_eagle at 29 Jan 2014 6.14pm
Quote Leicestershireeagle at 29 Jan 2014 1.41pm
We weren't, CPFC 1861 were. I'm digging all over the place at the moment, mainly reaffirming what I already knew/thought. Not being funny, but no one here can recall the gap between the two clubs, so digging around with available information is the best any of us can do. I'm not shamed to say I didn't know that about founding the FA; I don't and won't know everything about this club and never claimed to. I knew they were different entities from word go though, and nothing I can find suggests they should be considered one and the same. From what you've said, and not wanting to start an argument, there are 2 problems with your research LE: Any GCSE History student will tell you there are primary, secondary and tertiary forms of evidence, and without first hand evidence of someone playing for both teams, official team sheets and staff member sheets should be assessed..which I doubt you, or any one else for that matter has done, and without that it's all just conjecture, apart from the 2 Facts we have: 1) There WAS a team by the name of Crystal Palace playing in 'our' area from 1861-1876 Whether or not there is a solid link between the two would require proper investigation, looking at all original documents, not just a quick google/wiki search. Other teams, for instance Arsenal, have changed their name (originally Dial Square) numerous times, not to mention location and essentially fan-base, whereas we have stayed in the same area and retained the name. Surely it's subjective to say that there is a link? There is no objective evidence to link the two clubs as a singular entity, and every single source I looked at regards the 1861 CPFC as being defunct, and CPFC 1905 being founded as a separate club. That are the facts that are presently available, and have been for some time. The FA themselves state there are no known links to the current day club. What I forgot/didn't know/never noticed is irrelevant. Hell if I was trying to come across as a know-it-all, I wouldn't have innocently admitted to not knowing something, would I? My initial post was that they were separate entities, followed by a brief description of the accepted truths, and my acknowledgment about a piece trivia that has passed me by is irrelevant given that that particular trivia is irrelevant in establishing a link, and doesn't undermine the initial statement. Furthermore, it's entirely off topic and doesn't add anything to the discussion relating to the subject matter. I have no problems holding my hands up and saying I didn't know something, but I never claimed to be some sort sage in the history of the club, and merely offered the OP what is currently recognised. The gap between the two clubs means it's unlikely that there were players across both clubs (1861's team sheets are a little patchy though), and I don't doubt that their MAY be documentation linking the two, but as of what we know, I stand by the accepted view that the two clubs are separate, and we have no claim to an 1861 founding.
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Qwijibo Bournemouth 29 Jan 14 7.37pm | |
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The FA was formed there on 26 October 1863, a Monday evening. The captains, secretaries and other representatives of a dozen London and suburban clubs playing their own versions of football met “for the purpose of forming an Association with the object of establishing a definite code of rules for the regulation of the game”. The clubs represented were: Barnes, War Office*, Crusaders, Forest (Leytonstone), No Names (Kilburn), Crystal Palace**, Blackheath, Kensington School, Perceval House (Blackheath), Surbiton, Blackheath Proprietory School and Charterhouse.
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roman eagle South London 30 Jan 14 12.04pm | |
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I've often wondered if there were any connection between the original and current clubs - a nice little project for someone with time on their hands (not me!). One question though - did the re-formed club have connections to the building itself? Did any of them work there for instance? This would seem to make a kind of link.
Audentis fortuna iuvat (Virgil, 19BC) |
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c_block_shedevil London 30 Jan 14 1.33pm | |
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Quote adrian b at 29 Jan 2014 6.35pm
Tyhe problem is there was never a place called Crystal Palace way back in 1860. It was Upper Norwood and the Hyde Park Exhibition was located there once it was dismantled in about 1852. That was called the national exhibition centre. But it did look like a Cystal Palace and so the name then stuck, as The Crystal Palace. The men who stuck it all together got together to play soccer and asked the football club from where they came from to donate shirts. That was Aston Villa, hence the Claret and Blue, but this works teams played in Upper Norwood. No real connection with a team called Crystal Palace. Pity really as 1905 is a late start for such a great club!
I'm tough. I'm ambitious. I know exactly what I want. If that makes me a bitch, I'm OK with that. |
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adrian b Landrindod, Wales 30 Jan 14 1.45pm | |
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Quote regal_eagle at 29 Jan 2014 6.59pm
Quote adrian b at 29 Jan 2014 6.35pm
The men who stuck it all together got together to play soccer and asked the football club from where they came from to donate shirts.
You're nearly there, but not quite right.
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