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Superfly The sun always shines in Catford 05 Nov 12 4.49pm
Quote Stuk at 05 Nov 2012 4.34pm Quote Superfly at 05 Nov 2012 3.03pm Quote Stuk at 05 Nov 2012 2.47pm Quote nickgusset at 04 Nov 2012 11.17pm Interesting link. When I did agency work, I was paid by an umbrella company. Had no idea whether NIC was paid, the agency told me everything was above board. Still at least I'll get 3 square meals in the scrubs...and a playstation (apparently) What? You never had a payslip, no? You don't really get one for this type of method I think Stu. If I remember correctly, you're paid a minumum amount (can't remember what this is based on - but it less than 10k PA) on which you pay NIC and income tax. The rest of your wages are paid as 'profit sharing' from the umbrella company after they have paid corporation tax. I think the minumum amount might be the threshold amount you can earn before income tax (in which case you don't pay any income tax - just corporation tax). My memory's a bit fuzzy though Sounds like a scam to me. Funny how people are prepared to not ask questions when it comes to deductions from their own earnings. Nail on the head I did it myself when I was temping. In a nutshell it's a way of paying corp tax instead of income tax, which I think saves you about 6 or 7% You can also deduct expenses from your gross to cut down the tax bill Edited by Superfly (05 Nov 2012 4.50pm) Lend me a Tenor 31 May to 3 June 2017 John McIntosh Arts Centre London Oratory School SW6 1RX with Superfly in the chorus [Link]
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Superfly

The sun always shines in Catford 05 Nov 12 4.49pm

Quote Stuk at 05 Nov 2012 4.34pm

Quote Superfly at 05 Nov 2012 3.03pm

Quote Stuk at 05 Nov 2012 2.47pm

Quote nickgusset at 04 Nov 2012 11.17pm

Interesting link. When I did agency work, I was paid by an umbrella company. Had no idea whether NIC was paid, the agency told me everything was above board.
Still at least I'll get 3 square meals in the scrubs...and a playstation (apparently)

What? You never had a payslip, no?

You don't really get one for this type of method I think Stu. If I remember correctly, you're paid a minumum amount (can't remember what this is based on - but it less than 10k PA) on which you pay NIC and income tax. The rest of your wages are paid as 'profit sharing' from the umbrella company after they have paid corporation tax.

I think the minumum amount might be the threshold amount you can earn before income tax (in which case you don't pay any income tax - just corporation tax). My memory's a bit fuzzy though

Sounds like a scam to me.

Funny how people are prepared to not ask questions when it comes to deductions from their own earnings.

Nail on the head

I did it myself when I was temping. In a nutshell it's a way of paying corp tax instead of income tax, which I think saves you about 6 or 7% You can also deduct expenses from your gross to cut down the tax bill

Edited by Superfly (05 Nov 2012 4.50pm)

Lend me a Tenor

31 May to 3 June 2017

John McIntosh Arts Centre
London Oratory School
SW6 1RX

with Superfly in the chorus
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 05 Nov 12 5.22pm
Quote nickgusset at 04 Nov 2012 11.17pm Interesting link. When I did agency work, I was paid by an umbrella company. Had no idea whether NIC was paid, the agency told me everything was above board. Still at least I'll get 3 square meals in the scrubs...and a playstation (apparently) Umbrella companys are a very questionable in terms of their tax contributions. That said, mine works out at around 20-25% of my income goes out as tax (dependent on expenses). Its just worked out differently than PAYE. But if you consider sick pay, holdiay pay, tax incentives and pension contributions, that you have to make yourself, it probably works out as close to PAYE. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 05 Nov 12 5.22pm

Quote nickgusset at 04 Nov 2012 11.17pm

Interesting link. When I did agency work, I was paid by an umbrella company. Had no idea whether NIC was paid, the agency told me everything was above board.
Still at least I'll get 3 square meals in the scrubs...and a playstation (apparently)

Umbrella companys are a very questionable in terms of their tax contributions. That said, mine works out at around 20-25% of my income goes out as tax (dependent on expenses). Its just worked out differently than PAYE.

But if you consider sick pay, holdiay pay, tax incentives and pension contributions, that you have to make yourself, it probably works out as close to PAYE.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 05 Nov 12 5.30pm
Quote npn at 05 Nov 2012 4.42pm Quote Stuk at 05 Nov 2012 4.34pm Quote Superfly at 05 Nov 2012 3.03pm Quote Stuk at 05 Nov 2012 2.47pm Quote nickgusset at 04 Nov 2012 11.17pm Interesting link. When I did agency work, I was paid by an umbrella company. Had no idea whether NIC was paid, the agency told me everything was above board. Still at least I'll get 3 square meals in the scrubs...and a playstation (apparently) What? You never had a payslip, no? You don't really get one for this type of method I think Stu. If I remember correctly, you're paid a minumum amount (can't remember what this is based on - but it less than 10k PA) on which you pay NIC and income tax. The rest of your wages are paid as 'profit sharing' from the umbrella company after they have paid corporation tax. I think the minumum amount might be the threshold amount you can earn before income tax (in which case you don't pay any income tax - just corporation tax). My memory's a bit fuzzy though Sounds like a scam to me. Funny how people are prepared to not ask questions when it comes to deductions from their own earnings. Yeah, it is. I used an umbrella while contracting for a while (but then I'm a filthy capitalist). You 'work' for them, and earn a small wage thus avoiding large amounts of NI, and staying outside IR35 by not directly contracting. All legal avoidance techniques, but precisely the sort of thing that tends to draw disgusted tuts when done by others. Although I did receive a payslip (which I think they are legally obliged to produce). Just because you're a hypocrite doesn't mean you're not right. Its a capitalist society, its only a fool who tries to live by marxist principles. At the end of the day, you have to exist and make the most of life. Personally, I'm about 800 a month better off self employed than when I was permanent. My deductions work out at around 25% from Gross to take home. Which is a lot different to paying nothing, or next to nothing. As I said before, its not people who 'make it work a bit better in their favour' that are the problem, its the ones who take the p*ss. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 05 Nov 12 5.30pm

Quote npn at 05 Nov 2012 4.42pm

Quote Stuk at 05 Nov 2012 4.34pm

Quote Superfly at 05 Nov 2012 3.03pm

Quote Stuk at 05 Nov 2012 2.47pm

Quote nickgusset at 04 Nov 2012 11.17pm

What? You never had a payslip, no?

I think the minumum amount might be the threshold amount you can earn before income tax (in which case you don't pay any income tax - just corporation tax). My memory's a bit fuzzy though

Sounds like a scam to me.
Funny how people are prepared to not ask questions when it comes to deductions from their own earnings.

Yeah, it is. I used an umbrella while contracting for a while (but then I'm a filthy capitalist).

You 'work' for them, and earn a small wage thus avoiding large amounts of NI, and staying outside IR35 by not directly contracting.

All legal avoidance techniques, but precisely the sort of thing that tends to draw disgusted tuts when done by others. Although I did receive a payslip (which I think they are legally obliged to produce).

Just because you're a hypocrite doesn't mean you're not right. Its a capitalist society, its only a fool who tries to live by marxist principles. At the end of the day, you have to exist and make the most of life.

Personally, I'm about 800 a month better off self employed than when I was permanent. My deductions work out at around 25% from Gross to take home.

Which is a lot different to paying nothing, or next to nothing.

As I said before, its not people who 'make it work a bit better in their favour' that are the problem, its the ones who take the p*ss.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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PassDribbleShoot London 05 Nov 12 5.33pm
I know a little bit about tax through my studies to know that there exist many loopholes and schemes which allow higher rate individuals and companies to save on tax. I think they should scrap certain tax avoidance schemes unless they benefit the economy. e.g apprentice schemes, Research & Development, etc.
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PassDribbleShoot

London 05 Nov 12 5.33pm

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I know a little bit about tax through my studies to know that there exist many loopholes and schemes which allow higher rate individuals and companies to save on tax.

I think they should scrap certain tax avoidance schemes unless they benefit the economy. e.g apprentice schemes, Research & Development, etc.

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dynamicdick Dormansland 06 Nov 12 5.05pm
Companies employ accountants to save them money i.e. TAX there is nothing wrong whatsoever with firms like Apple paying very little tax, don't shoot the messenger change the Law!! Bring back Brolin
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dynamicdick

Dormansland 06 Nov 12 5.05pm

Companies employ accountants to save them money i.e. TAX there is nothing wrong whatsoever with firms like Apple paying very little tax, don't shoot the messenger change the Law!!

Bring back Brolin

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jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Nov 12 5.14pm
Quote dynamicdick at 06 Nov 2012 5.05pm Companies employ accountants to save them money i.e. TAX there is nothing wrong whatsoever with firms like Apple paying very little tax, don't shoot the messenger change the Law!! Well, there is, in an ethical sense, when you consider that as a consequence of them not paying tax, everyone else has to pay a greater share in order to sustain public and national services. So if Apple don't pay, say 16m in tax, thats 16m that everyone ends up paying. Its a bit like shoplifters. Its seems victimless, until you realise that the aggrevied party simply adjust prices of goods to compensate for the stolen goods. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 06 Nov 12 5.14pm

Quote dynamicdick at 06 Nov 2012 5.05pm

Companies employ accountants to save them money i.e. TAX there is nothing wrong whatsoever with firms like Apple paying very little tax, don't shoot the messenger change the Law!!

Well, there is, in an ethical sense, when you consider that as a consequence of them not paying tax, everyone else has to pay a greater share in order to sustain public and national services.

So if Apple don't pay, say 16m in tax, thats 16m that everyone ends up paying.

Its a bit like shoplifters. Its seems victimless, until you realise that the aggrevied party simply adjust prices of goods to compensate for the stolen goods.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Nov 12 5.17pm
Quote PassDribbleShoot at 05 Nov 2012 5.33pm I know a little bit about tax through my studies to know that there exist many loopholes and schemes which allow higher rate individuals and companies to save on tax. I think they should scrap certain tax avoidance schemes unless they benefit the economy. e.g apprentice schemes, Research & Development, etc. Actually the later tends to be how most avoidance schemes come to occur, exploitation of taxation relief schemes aimed at something totally different. I'm an IT contractor, in no way shape or form were the rules regarding self employed like us (they were more designed for self employed craftsman such as builders, plumbers, small business owners etc). "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 06 Nov 12 5.17pm

Quote PassDribbleShoot at 05 Nov 2012 5.33pm

I know a little bit about tax through my studies to know that there exist many loopholes and schemes which allow higher rate individuals and companies to save on tax.

I think they should scrap certain tax avoidance schemes unless they benefit the economy. e.g apprentice schemes, Research & Development, etc.

Actually the later tends to be how most avoidance schemes come to occur, exploitation of taxation relief schemes aimed at something totally different.

I'm an IT contractor, in no way shape or form were the rules regarding self employed like us (they were more designed for self employed craftsman such as builders, plumbers, small business owners etc).

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Baldfella Wigan 06 Nov 12 5.30pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 06 Nov 2012 5.14pm Quote dynamicdick at 06 Nov 2012 5.05pm Companies employ accountants to save them money i.e. TAX there is nothing wrong whatsoever with firms like Apple paying very little tax, don't shoot the messenger change the Law!! Well, there is, in an ethical sense, when you consider that as a consequence of them not paying tax, everyone else has to pay a greater share in order to sustain public and national services. So if Apple don't pay, say 16m in tax, thats 16m that everyone ends up paying. Its a bit like shoplifters. Its seems victimless, until you realise that the aggrevied party simply adjust prices of goods to compensate for the stolen goods. Ethics my arse is there anyone in the world that would phone HMRC and say "I didn't pay enough tax last month I'll pay a bit more next month !" Is there ? Ok maybe SW2 but apart from that ?
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Baldfella

Wigan 06 Nov 12 5.30pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 06 Nov 2012 5.14pm

Quote dynamicdick at 06 Nov 2012 5.05pm

Companies employ accountants to save them money i.e. TAX there is nothing wrong whatsoever with firms like Apple paying very little tax, don't shoot the messenger change the Law!!

Well, there is, in an ethical sense, when you consider that as a consequence of them not paying tax, everyone else has to pay a greater share in order to sustain public and national services.

So if Apple don't pay, say 16m in tax, thats 16m that everyone ends up paying.

Its a bit like shoplifters. Its seems victimless, until you realise that the aggrevied party simply adjust prices of goods to compensate for the stolen goods.

Ethics my arse is there anyone in the world that would phone HMRC and say "I didn't pay enough tax last month I'll pay a bit more next month !" Is there ?

Ok maybe SW2 but apart from that ?

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jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Nov 12 11.14pm
Quote Baldfella at 06 Nov 2012 5.30pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 06 Nov 2012 5.14pm Quote dynamicdick at 06 Nov 2012 5.05pm Companies employ accountants to save them money i.e. TAX there is nothing wrong whatsoever with firms like Apple paying very little tax, don't shoot the messenger change the Law!! Well, there is, in an ethical sense, when you consider that as a consequence of them not paying tax, everyone else has to pay a greater share in order to sustain public and national services. So if Apple don't pay, say 16m in tax, thats 16m that everyone ends up paying. Its a bit like shoplifters. Its seems victimless, until you realise that the aggrevied party simply adjust prices of goods to compensate for the stolen goods. Ethics my arse is there anyone in the world that would phone HMRC and say "I didn't pay enough tax last month I'll pay a bit more next month !" Is there ? Ok maybe SW2 but apart from that ? Why pay for a shirt, when you can steal it. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 06 Nov 12 11.14pm

Quote Baldfella at 06 Nov 2012 5.30pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 06 Nov 2012 5.14pm

Quote dynamicdick at 06 Nov 2012 5.05pm

Companies employ accountants to save them money i.e. TAX there is nothing wrong whatsoever with firms like Apple paying very little tax, don't shoot the messenger change the Law!!

Well, there is, in an ethical sense, when you consider that as a consequence of them not paying tax, everyone else has to pay a greater share in order to sustain public and national services.

So if Apple don't pay, say 16m in tax, thats 16m that everyone ends up paying.

Its a bit like shoplifters. Its seems victimless, until you realise that the aggrevied party simply adjust prices of goods to compensate for the stolen goods.

Ethics my arse is there anyone in the world that would phone HMRC and say "I didn't pay enough tax last month I'll pay a bit more next month !" Is there ?

Ok maybe SW2 but apart from that ?

Why pay for a shirt, when you can steal it.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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robdave2k 08 Nov 12 4.58pm
Page 1 of the HMRC Taxpayer's charter states "taxpayers have the right to setup their affairs in a way with legally reduces their tax to a minimum" Eg tax avoidance. On the subject of Umbrella Companies - these are frowned on and no longer legal. The risk also sits with the contractor, not with the Umbrella Company if it all goes tits up. I'd have no shame in highlighting a tax avoidance scheme to a client (not as far pushed as Jimmy Carr etc though). At the end of the day why should you work all your life, take the risks that come with being self employed and then see up to 57% in the £ handed over to the tax man. Most of my clients earn less than £250k per annum, so are hardly millionaires and don't have the security of work placed pensions. With the bigger corporations - yes they should pay more in tax. Before everyone dives into the "clever accountants" etc, it's actually crap legislation. On 5th December the pre budget report will outline the GAAR approach - which will detail how they intend to reduce tax avoidance. HMRC will get it wrong and everything will continue. As with everything, there are different levels of avoidance. They should also look at protecting the term accountant - as at the moment it doesn't share protection with "Solicitor" or "Doctor" etc. As with anything you will get people who take it to the extreme. For every person engaging in tax avoidance to save thousands, there will be someone milking the benefits system claiming out thousands. Edited by robdave2k (08 Nov 2012 5.00pm)
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robdave2k

08 Nov 12 4.58pm

Page 1 of the HMRC Taxpayer's charter states

"taxpayers have the right to setup their affairs in a way with legally reduces their tax to a minimum"

Eg tax avoidance.

On the subject of Umbrella Companies - these are frowned on and no longer legal. The risk also sits with the contractor, not with the Umbrella Company if it all goes tits up.

I'd have no shame in highlighting a tax avoidance scheme to a client (not as far pushed as Jimmy Carr etc though). At the end of the day why should you work all your life, take the risks that come with being self employed and then see up to 57% in the £ handed over to the tax man. Most of my clients earn less than £250k per annum, so are hardly millionaires and don't have the security of work placed pensions. With the bigger corporations - yes they should pay more in tax.

Before everyone dives into the "clever accountants" etc, it's actually crap legislation. On 5th December the pre budget report will outline the GAAR approach - which will detail how they intend to reduce tax avoidance. HMRC will get it wrong and everything will continue.

As with everything, there are different levels of avoidance. They should also look at protecting the term accountant - as at the moment it doesn't share protection with "Solicitor" or "Doctor" etc.

As with anything you will get people who take it to the extreme. For every person engaging in tax avoidance to save thousands, there will be someone milking the benefits system claiming out thousands.

Edited by robdave2k (08 Nov 2012 5.00pm)

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Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 08 Nov 12 5.06pm
Quote robdave2k at 08 Nov 2012 4.58pm Page 1 of the HMRC Taxpayer's charter states "taxpayers have the right to setup their affairs in a way with legally reduces their tax to a minimum" Eg tax avoidance. On the subject of Umbrella Companies - these are frowned on and no longer legal. The risk also sits with the contractor, not with the Umbrella Company if it all goes tits up. I'd have no shame in highlighting a tax avoidance scheme to a client (not as far pushed as Jimmy Carr etc though). At the end of the day why should you work all your life, take the risks that come with being self employed and then see up to 57% in the £ handed over to the tax man. Most of my clients earn less than £250k per annum, so are hardly millionaires and don't have the security of work placed pensions. With the bigger corporations - yes they should pay more in tax. Before everyone dives into the "clever accountants" etc, it's actually crap legislation. On 5th December the pre budget report will outline the GAAR approach - which will detail how they intend to reduce tax avoidance. HMRC will get it wrong and everything will continue. As with everything, there are different levels of avoidance. They should also look at protecting the term accountant - as at the moment it doesn't share protection with "Solicitor" or "Doctor" etc. As with anything you will get people who take it to the extreme. For every person engaging in tax avoidance to save thousands, there will be someone milking the benefits system claiming out thousands. Edited by robdave2k (08 Nov 2012 5.00pm) Umbrella companies are most certainly not illegal. Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham
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Cucking Funt

Clapham on the Back 08 Nov 12 5.06pm

Quote robdave2k at 08 Nov 2012 4.58pm

Page 1 of the HMRC Taxpayer's charter states

"taxpayers have the right to setup their affairs in a way with legally reduces their tax to a minimum"

Eg tax avoidance.

On the subject of Umbrella Companies - these are frowned on and no longer legal. The risk also sits with the contractor, not with the Umbrella Company if it all goes tits up.

As with everything, there are different levels of avoidance. They should also look at protecting the term accountant - as at the moment it doesn't share protection with "Solicitor" or "Doctor" etc.

Edited by robdave2k (08 Nov 2012 5.00pm)

Umbrella companies are most certainly not illegal.

Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

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robdave2k 08 Nov 12 5.12pm
Quote Cucking Funt at 08 Nov 2012 5.06pm Quote robdave2k at 08 Nov 2012 4.58pm Page 1 of the HMRC Taxpayer's charter states "taxpayers have the right to setup their affairs in a way with legally reduces their tax to a minimum" Eg tax avoidance. On the subject of Umbrella Companies - these are frowned on and no longer legal. The risk also sits with the contractor, not with the Umbrella Company if it all goes tits up. I'd have no shame in highlighting a tax avoidance scheme to a client (not as far pushed as Jimmy Carr etc though). At the end of the day why should you work all your life, take the risks that come with being self employed and then see up to 57% in the £ handed over to the tax man. Most of my clients earn less than £250k per annum, so are hardly millionaires and don't have the security of work placed pensions. With the bigger corporations - yes they should pay more in tax. Before everyone dives into the "clever accountants" etc, it's actually crap legislation. On 5th December the pre budget report will outline the GAAR approach - which will detail how they intend to reduce tax avoidance. HMRC will get it wrong and everything will continue. As with everything, there are different levels of avoidance. They should also look at protecting the term accountant - as at the moment it doesn't share protection with "Solicitor" or "Doctor" etc. As with anything you will get people who take it to the extreme. For every person engaging in tax avoidance to save thousands, there will be someone milking the benefits system claiming out thousands. Edited by robdave2k (08 Nov 2012 5.00pm) Umbrella companies are most certainly not illegal. Sorry to be clearer - certain Umbrella Companies, typically Managed Service Companies and offshore ones. Also there is a greater emphasis on the PAYE split now.
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robdave2k

08 Nov 12 5.12pm

Quote Cucking Funt at 08 Nov 2012 5.06pm

Quote robdave2k at 08 Nov 2012 4.58pm

Page 1 of the HMRC Taxpayer's charter states

"taxpayers have the right to setup their affairs in a way with legally reduces their tax to a minimum"

Eg tax avoidance.

On the subject of Umbrella Companies - these are frowned on and no longer legal. The risk also sits with the contractor, not with the Umbrella Company if it all goes tits up.

As with everything, there are different levels of avoidance. They should also look at protecting the term accountant - as at the moment it doesn't share protection with "Solicitor" or "Doctor" etc.

Edited by robdave2k (08 Nov 2012 5.00pm)

Umbrella companies are most certainly not illegal.

Sorry to be clearer - certain Umbrella Companies, typically Managed Service Companies and offshore ones. Also there is a greater emphasis on the PAYE split now.

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