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davenotamonkey 28 Aug 19 1.56pm
Originally posted by Jway89 This just shows the ignorance pretty much everyone in this country/planet is displaying. Everyone is in their little corner backing/fighting Brexit, like it's going to make such a massive difference. It won't. It will be a major struggle for a couple of years and that's it, until the forthcoming depression comes along, which no one will even notice until it happens. My question would be this to the Brexiteers. If Bojo managed to get freedom of movement cancelled as his deal, would you all be happy with that? We have politicians whose job is to be politicians. Just think about that. They have no skills apart from politics. The only thing they know is how to divide people by pitting them all against each other, whilst the super wealthy get what they want. How many bankers were jailed from the calamity of 2008? How much tax has Facebook, Amazon, Starbucks paid? If the economy is recovering why are interest rates so low? why has the stock market dropped about 10% in 1 year? I'm neither pro/against Brexit. What I'm for is issues being dealt with by politicians. I would be quite confident that if the Queen could dissolve Parliament, we would not notice the difference. No, I was never motivated particularly by immigration - it's a handy hook to accuse Brexiteers with "Racism" (sigh), "Bigotry" (yawn) and "Xenophobia" (snore). Nor was it the strongest motivation for those that voted to leave. This is evidenced by probably the most accurate exit poll available, before the media hysteria and post-vote propaganda started ramping up: [Link]
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davenotamonkey

28 Aug 19 1.56pm

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Originally posted by Jway89

This just shows the ignorance pretty much everyone in this country/planet is displaying.
Everyone is in their little corner backing/fighting Brexit, like it's going to make such a massive difference. It won't. It will be a major struggle for a couple of years and that's it, until the forthcoming depression comes along, which no one will even notice until it happens.

My question would be this to the Brexiteers. If Bojo managed to get freedom of movement cancelled as his deal, would you all be happy with that?

We have politicians whose job is to be politicians. Just think about that. They have no skills apart from politics. The only thing they know is how to divide people by pitting them all against each other, whilst the super wealthy get what they want.

How many bankers were jailed from the calamity of 2008? How much tax has Facebook, Amazon, Starbucks paid? If the economy is recovering why are interest rates so low? why has the stock market dropped about 10% in 1 year?

I'm neither pro/against Brexit. What I'm for is issues being dealt with by politicians. I would be quite confident that if the Queen could dissolve Parliament, we would not notice the difference.

No, I was never motivated particularly by immigration - it's a handy hook to accuse Brexiteers with "Racism" (sigh), "Bigotry" (yawn) and "Xenophobia" (snore). Nor was it the strongest motivation for those that voted to leave. This is evidenced by probably the most accurate exit poll available, before the media hysteria and post-vote propaganda started ramping up:

[Link]

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Mapletree Croydon 28 Aug 19 2.15pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Well you sound very reasonable. If Merkel had given Cameron what he wanted back in 2015 during his 'renegotiation' I have little doubt that it wouldn't have come to this. But that's what a lack of compromise gets you......when you play for high stakes and all that. I'm currently listening to a very balanced and fair 'behind the scenes' retelling of the leave and remain 2016 campaigns on audio book. It's called 'all out war' and I can recommend it to everyone.....it's fascinating to hear what was really going on. Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Aug 2019 1.01pm) Yes, the EU were rubbish at responding to what was building up inside not only Britain. And then rubbish at heading off the crises that engendered. It's one reason why Britain improves the EU, more pragmatic than the big power brokers
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Mapletree

Croydon 28 Aug 19 2.15pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Well you sound very reasonable.

If Merkel had given Cameron what he wanted back in 2015 during his 'renegotiation' I have little doubt that it wouldn't have come to this.

But that's what a lack of compromise gets you......when you play for high stakes and all that.

I'm currently listening to a very balanced and fair 'behind the scenes' retelling of the leave and remain 2016 campaigns on audio book.

It's called 'all out war' and I can recommend it to everyone.....it's fascinating to hear what was really going on.

Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Aug 2019 1.01pm)

Yes, the EU were rubbish at responding to what was building up inside not only Britain. And then rubbish at heading off the crises that engendered.

It's one reason why Britain improves the EU, more pragmatic than the big power brokers

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Mapletree Croydon 28 Aug 19 2.19pm
Originally posted by davenotamonkey No, I was never motivated particularly by immigration - it's a handy hook to accuse Brexiteers with "Racism" (sigh), "Bigotry" (yawn) and "Xenophobia" (snore). Nor was it the strongest motivation for those that voted to leave. This is evidenced by probably the most accurate exit poll available, before the media hysteria and post-vote propaganda started ramping up: [Link] Well, apparently it was for a third but hey, a mere bagatelle. I put this down to us not having had a war for a while. The Brits love a good battle and forget the pain that brings
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Mapletree

Croydon 28 Aug 19 2.19pm

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

[Link]

Well, apparently it was for a third but hey, a mere bagatelle.

I put this down to us not having had a war for a while. The Brits love a good battle and forget the pain that brings

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Mapletree Croydon 28 Aug 19 2.20pm
Originally posted by Matov If Scotland chose not to vote for independence when oil was 0 a barrel, why on earth would it vote for it now? Why is being in the EU so great for them? Seriously? Their deficit is huge, their economy is overly reliant on UK government jobs and they have been told they will require their own currency. And I genuinely am smiling at all the Remainer hysteria. This is how Parliament works. But there will be a chance to stop it all. All Corbyn has to do is call for a vote of no-confidence. Has he stated he definitely will yet? (just got off the beach and eaten lunch so not got a scooby). Same logic as England but in reverse. You can't show me any economic logic for Brexit. It's more about sovereignty.
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Mapletree

Croydon 28 Aug 19 2.20pm

Originally posted by Matov

If Scotland chose not to vote for independence when oil was 0 a barrel, why on earth would it vote for it now?

Why is being in the EU so great for them? Seriously? Their deficit is huge, their economy is overly reliant on UK government jobs and they have been told they will require their own currency.

And I genuinely am smiling at all the Remainer hysteria. This is how Parliament works.

But there will be a chance to stop it all. All Corbyn has to do is call for a vote of no-confidence. Has he stated he definitely will yet? (just got off the beach and eaten lunch so not got a scooby).

Same logic as England but in reverse. You can't show me any economic logic for Brexit. It's more about sovereignty.

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Stirlingsays 28 Aug 19 2.23pm
Originally posted by Mapletree Yes, the EU were rubbish at responding to what was building up inside not only Britain. And then rubbish at heading off the crises that engendered. It's one reason why Britain improves the EU, more pragmatic than the big power brokers There's little doubt it's one of the downsides....however vastly too fast EU expansion created a lop sided voting situation.....the UK only ever could win votes that Germany also wanted.....and a Europe controlled by Germany is kind of not what we signed up for anyway. I have little doubt we will have another vote within five years, perhaps 'join' will win that....but I don't see the EU changing until the next collapse. Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Aug 2019 2.24pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

28 Aug 19 2.23pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

Yes, the EU were rubbish at responding to what was building up inside not only Britain. And then rubbish at heading off the crises that engendered.

It's one reason why Britain improves the EU, more pragmatic than the big power brokers

There's little doubt it's one of the downsides....however vastly too fast EU expansion created a lop sided voting situation.....the UK only ever could win votes that Germany also wanted.....and a Europe controlled by Germany is kind of not what we signed up for anyway.

I have little doubt we will have another vote within five years, perhaps 'join' will win that....but I don't see the EU changing until the next collapse.

Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Aug 2019 2.24pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Lyons550 Shirley 28 Aug 19 2.37pm
Originally posted by Mapletree Yes they should. But then 700,000 British citizens living or working abroad were blocked from being able to. The vast majority would have voted and would have voted Remain. Add to that the 2 million who couldn't vote then but are now old enough. A huge majority would have voted remain if they follow the pattern of their slightly older peers. So you do the sums. This is why the Brexit enthusiasts don't want another vote. You say one or two million, I say you are wrong. Let's look again in October. The fallacy that if Brexit were stopped there would be mass riots is as nothing compared to the people's reaction to being manipulated into something that will massively damage their and their children's future. Oh and say tata to the tartans, they are offski. BoJo will go down in history for many things, including breaking up the UK. The apathetic vote is the real reason we are here. if the lazy fckers had got off their arses and voted none of this would likely have happened...but its symptomatic of todays society...leave it to someone else because they're too busy watching netflix or on Social media to care until its too late. So perhaps...just perhaps the metaphorical kick up the arse this has and is giving them may mean that in a decades time we have a more conscientious populous who take more of an interest in the country and its direction / leadership. The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World
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Lyons550

Shirley 28 Aug 19 2.37pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

Yes they should. But then 700,000 British citizens living or working abroad were blocked from being able to. The vast majority would have voted and would have voted Remain.

Add to that the 2 million who couldn't vote then but are now old enough. A huge majority would have voted remain if they follow the pattern of their slightly older peers.

So you do the sums. This is why the Brexit enthusiasts don't want another vote.

You say one or two million, I say you are wrong. Let's look again in October. The fallacy that if Brexit were stopped there would be mass riots is as nothing compared to the people's reaction to being manipulated into something that will massively damage their and their children's future.

Oh and say tata to the tartans, they are offski. BoJo will go down in history for many things, including breaking up the UK.

The apathetic vote is the real reason we are here. if the lazy fckers had got off their arses and voted none of this would likely have happened...but its symptomatic of todays society...leave it to someone else because they're too busy watching netflix or on Social media to care until its too late.

So perhaps...just perhaps the metaphorical kick up the arse this has and is giving them may mean that in a decades time we have a more conscientious populous who take more of an interest in the country and its direction / leadership.

The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

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Lyons550 Shirley 28 Aug 19 2.41pm
Originally posted by Jway89 This just shows the ignorance pretty much everyone in this country/planet is displaying. Everyone is in their little corner backing/fighting Brexit, like it's going to make such a massive difference. It won't. It will be a major struggle for a couple of years and that's it, until the forthcoming depression comes along, which no one will even notice until it happens. My question would be this to the Brexiteers. If Bojo managed to get freedom of movement cancelled as his deal, would you all be happy with that? We have politicians whose job is to be politicians. Just think about that. They have no skills apart from politics. The only thing they know is how to divide people by pitting them all against each other, whilst the super wealthy get what they want. How many bankers were jailed from the calamity of 2008? How much tax has Facebook, Amazon, Starbucks paid? If the economy is recovering why are interest rates so low? why has the stock market dropped about 10% in 1 year? I'm neither pro/against Brexit. What I'm for is issues being dealt with by politicians. I would be quite confident that if the Queen could dissolve Parliament, we would not notice the difference. Completely agree on most of this. The 'self serving' attitude on BOTH sides of the establishment is abhorrent, the one remaining thread of decency is to follow the peoples wishes (and by that I mean the majority of whom voted) after which I'll be happy for them all to be had up for treachery! The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World
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Lyons550

Shirley 28 Aug 19 2.41pm

Originally posted by Jway89

My question would be this to the Brexiteers. If Bojo managed to get freedom of movement cancelled as his deal, would you all be happy with that?

I'm neither pro/against Brexit. What I'm for is issues being dealt with by politicians. I would be quite confident that if the Queen could dissolve Parliament, we would not notice the difference.

Completely agree on most of this. The 'self serving' attitude on BOTH sides of the establishment is abhorrent, the one remaining thread of decency is to follow the peoples wishes (and by that I mean the majority of whom voted) after which I'll be happy for them all to be had up for treachery!

The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

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Stirlingsays 28 Aug 19 2.41pm
Originally posted by Mapletree Same logic as England but in reverse. You can't show me any economic logic for Brexit. It's more about sovereignty. When the EU eventually economically collapses being outside limits our exposure. But you are right, this was never primarily about economics. If Scotland goes independent then I support that self determination......You can blame Brexit all you like but in truth it was inevitable once Blair gave them a parliament......it has always been on the clock since then. Just a matter of when. Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Aug 2019 2.43pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

28 Aug 19 2.41pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

Same logic as England but in reverse. You can't show me any economic logic for Brexit. It's more about sovereignty.

When the EU eventually economically collapses being outside limits our exposure.

But you are right, this was never primarily about economics.

If Scotland goes independent then I support that self determination......You can blame Brexit all you like but in truth it was inevitable once Blair gave them a parliament......it has always been on the clock since then.

Just a matter of when.

Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Aug 2019 2.43pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Badger11 Beckenham 28 Aug 19 2.50pm
Originally posted by Matov Except it is line with accepted Parliamentary procedure. But Parliament will have the chance to have a vote of No Confidence before it happens. How much more democracy do you want? There is nothing undemocratic in what Boris is doing. Parliament will have the chance to vote his government down before it is prorogued if they fail he is entitled to do so. If they defeat him then we either get a new government that can stop it or we get a GE either way these decisions are decided by MPs. What the Remainers are really unhappy about is Johnson is calling their bluff. They want to drag this on forever until the public give up. They have no choice now put up or shut up. We have had 3 years of endless debates and stalling tactics we don't need more time to discuss we need clarity. Corbyn is going to have to come off the fence. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 28 Aug 19 2.50pm

Originally posted by Matov

Except it is line with accepted Parliamentary procedure.

But Parliament will have the chance to have a vote of No Confidence before it happens. How much more democracy do you want?

There is nothing undemocratic in what Boris is doing. Parliament will have the chance to vote his government down before it is prorogued if they fail he is entitled to do so. If they defeat him then we either get a new government that can stop it or we get a GE either way these decisions are decided by MPs.

What the Remainers are really unhappy about is Johnson is calling their bluff. They want to drag this on forever until the public give up. They have no choice now put up or shut up.

We have had 3 years of endless debates and stalling tactics we don't need more time to discuss we need clarity.

Corbyn is going to have to come off the fence.

One more point

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Mapletree Croydon 28 Aug 19 2.55pm
Originally posted by Lyons550 The apathetic vote is the real reason we are here. if the lazy fckers had got off their arses and voted none of this would likely have happened...but its symptomatic of todays society...leave it to someone else because they're too busy watching netflix or on Social media to care until its too late. So perhaps...just perhaps the metaphorical kick up the arse this has and is giving them may mean that in a decades time we have a more conscientious populous who take more of an interest in the country and its direction / leadership. Don't agree The turnout was reasonable. [Link] The 18 to 25 year olds were at 64% turnout. The last GE was 69% overall. Remember that a majority of those working full-time or part-time voted to remain in the EU; most of those not working voted to leave. The over 65s almost all turned out, but then they don't have jobs and such busy lives in the most part. So this is really an over 65s initiative, who of course don't feel directly the economic pain. I have to say most people didn't realise the danger that such a skewed turnout would deliver something that wasn't in line with the overall thinking of the population. If they had then maybe it would have been a 90% plus turnout in all age groups. That would certainly have been a substantial Remain majority.
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Mapletree

Croydon 28 Aug 19 2.55pm

Originally posted by Lyons550

Don't agree

The turnout was reasonable.

[Link]

The 18 to 25 year olds were at 64% turnout. The last GE was 69% overall.

Remember that a majority of those working full-time or part-time voted to remain in the EU; most of those not working voted to leave. The over 65s almost all turned out, but then they don't have jobs and such busy lives in the most part. So this is really an over 65s initiative, who of course don't feel directly the economic pain.

I have to say most people didn't realise the danger that such a skewed turnout would deliver something that wasn't in line with the overall thinking of the population. If they had then maybe it would have been a 90% plus turnout in all age groups. That would certainly have been a substantial Remain majority.

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Mapletree Croydon 28 Aug 19 2.57pm
Originally posted by Badger11 There is nothing undemocratic in what Boris is doing. Parliament will have the chance to vote his government down before it is prorogued if they fail he is entitled to do so. If they defeat him then we either get a new government that can stop it or we get a GE either way these decisions are decided by MPs. What the Remainers are really unhappy about is Johnson is calling their bluff. They want to drag this on forever until the public give up. They have no choice now put up or shut up. We have had 3 years of endless debates and stalling tactics we don't need more time to discuss we need clarity. Corbyn is going to have to come off the fence. Ah, all the academics who study politics are wrong then. Good to know, thanks for that input.
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Mapletree

Croydon 28 Aug 19 2.57pm

Originally posted by Badger11

What the Remainers are really unhappy about is Johnson is calling their bluff. They want to drag this on forever until the public give up. They have no choice now put up or shut up.

We have had 3 years of endless debates and stalling tactics we don't need more time to discuss we need clarity.

Corbyn is going to have to come off the fence.

Ah, all the academics who study politics are wrong then. Good to know, thanks for that input.

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 28 Aug 19 3.00pm
Originally posted by Mapletree Ah, all the academics who study politics are wrong then. Good to know, thanks for that input. Academics are not impartial observers. They want access to the EU gravy train in research funding. I'm sure you can look up how that money is being spent. Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 28 Aug 19 3.00pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

Ah, all the academics who study politics are wrong then. Good to know, thanks for that input.

Academics are not impartial observers. They want access to the EU gravy train in research funding. I'm sure you can look up how that money is being spent.

Red and Blue Army!

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