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Coronavirus and the impact of Lockdown policy

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards SW19 CPFC Flag Addiscombe West 21 Sep 23 4.40pm Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

It would be good to see the originall CDC statement (and that date of that statement), as well as their current position and guidance before passing judgement on this post.

However that would be too objective so here goes

Gist of your point appears to be – 'Government body makes statement based on available studies at the time, new study suggests guidance should be updated accordingly, therefore vaccine is unsafe'.

OK

Also considering the half life of mrna and zero evidence that trace amounts cause any harm whatsoever (mRNA, not DNA remember). What, exactly, is unsafe about their current guidance?

Worth noting these excerpts as well, from what appears to be a very useful study, so thanks for sharing

Our findings suggest that the COVID-19 vaccine mRNA administered to lactating mothers can spread systemically to the BM in the first two days after maternal vaccination. However, the mRNA was only occasionally detected in BM, in trace amounts, and mainly concentrated in BM EVs. The linkage analysis showed that the vaccine mRNA detected in BM was largely fragmented and retained only 12–25% of the original vaccine mRNA integrity. While the vaccine mRNA seems to be translationally inactive, further investigation is required to determine the minimum amount of mRNA needed to elicit an immune response in newborns.

• Trace amounts (Good)
• Highly degraded (Good)
• Small study (Bad)
• More research needed (Good)

Any trace mRNA in expressed breastmilk vanishes after 48 hours, so if you were to be ultra cautious, you'd just follow the new research/guidance and wait.

The only vaccines I can find info on that should not be given during pregnancy/early stage breastfeeding are live ones. Such as MMR, Polio, Typhoid, Yellow fever etc.

You only know what you know once you know it – if they now don't bother updating guidance then sure, you'll quite rightly have a stick to beat them with

 


Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards SW19 CPFC Flag Addiscombe West 21 Sep 23 4.52pm Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by eaglesdare

A London Professor of Oncology calls for urgent stop to C19 boosters:

"As an Oncologist I Am Seeing People With Stable Cancer Rapidly Relapse After a C19 Booster"

Angus Dalgleish, Professor of Oncology at St. Georges Hospital Medical School London.


Surely it's worth an investigation?

Ah 'Turbo Cancer'. Sure. Is your point that it won't be investigated? Because if it's a trend, rather obviously, it will be. Until then, burden of proof. Correlation, causation.

 


Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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Stirlingsays Flag 21 Sep 23 5.08pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

It would be good to see the originall CDC statement (and that date of that statement), as well as their current position and guidance before passing judgement on this post.

However that would be too objective so here goes

Gist of your point appears to be – 'Government body makes statement based on available studies at the time, new study suggests guidance should be updated accordingly, therefore vaccine is unsafe'.

OK

Also considering the half life of mrna and zero evidence that trace amounts cause any harm whatsoever (mRNA, not DNA remember). What, exactly, is unsafe about their current guidance?

Worth noting these excerpts as well, from what appears to be a very useful study, so thanks for sharing

Our findings suggest that the COVID-19 vaccine mRNA administered to lactating mothers can spread systemically to the BM in the first two days after maternal vaccination. However, the mRNA was only occasionally detected in BM, in trace amounts, and mainly concentrated in BM EVs. The linkage analysis showed that the vaccine mRNA detected in BM was largely fragmented and retained only 12–25% of the original vaccine mRNA integrity. While the vaccine mRNA seems to be translationally inactive, further investigation is required to determine the minimum amount of mRNA needed to elicit an immune response in newborns.

• Trace amounts (Good)
• Highly degraded (Good)
• Small study (Bad)
• More research needed (Good)

Any trace mRNA in expressed breastmilk vanishes after 48 hours, so if you were to be ultra cautious, you'd just follow the new research/guidance and wait.

The only vaccines I can find info on that should not be given during pregnancy/early stage breastfeeding are live ones. Such as MMR, Polio, Typhoid, Yellow fever etc.

You only know what you know once you know it – if they now don't bother updating guidance then sure, you'll quite rightly have a stick to beat them with

You are referring to migrations that are also seemingly coming from the same source whose's information has been found to be too absolute.

The original criticism seems to be correct.

If you make a statement that none of this vaccine can be transmitted to the unborn and then that's found to be inaccurate then trust is undermined.

Presumably some mothers would have taken that vaccine under false pretenses.

Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Sep 2023 5.09pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards SW19 CPFC Flag Addiscombe West 21 Sep 23 5.28pm Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

You are referring to migrations that are also seemingly coming from the same source whose's information has been found to be too absolute.

The original criticism seems to be correct.

If you make a statement that none of this vaccine can be transmitted to the unborn and then that's found to be inaccurate then trust is undermined.

Presumably some mothers would have taken that vaccine under false pretenses.

Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Sep 2023 5.09pm)

So do you have a link to the original CDC statement?

It's only false pretences if they knew the advice was false at the time it was given. Otherwise I think that unlikely but hard to know unless the original date and content of the statement is shared.

There's also still nothing to suggest the vaccine is unsafe, which again I assume was the point of the link posting.

Edited by SW19 CPFC (21 Sep 2023 5.36pm)

 


Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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Stirlingsays Flag 21 Sep 23 5.37pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

So do you have a link to the original CDC statement?

It's only false pretences if they knew the advice was false at the time it was given. Other I think that unlikely but hard to know unless the original date and content of the statement is shared.

There's also still nothing to suggest the vaccine is unsafe, which again I assume was the point of the link posting.


I often get asked to do research....No I don't but I have no issues with you researching that if you wish my man.

The point of the post wasn't on the question of vaccine safety, which to me is a separate question. It's on the accuracy of statements given by bodies to the public that then affect decisions organisations and individuals make.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards SW19 CPFC Flag Addiscombe West 21 Sep 23 5.45pm Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays


I often get asked to do research....No I don't but I have no issues with you researching that if you wish my man.

The point of the post wasn't on the question of vaccine safety, which to me is a separate question. It's on the accuracy of statements given by bodies to the public that then affect decisions organisations and individuals make.

Might be worth seeing both sides before criticising, don't you think?

I will try and find it for balance.

The accuracy of statements given to the public is based on the available research and test results at that time.

Unsurprisingly, and very scientifically, that research creates new guidance over time.

When taking Paracetamol, do you still refer to the guidance issued in 1956? No. Because it's changed quite a bit since then.

It's a bit of a silly position.

If you're saying the CDC knew that what they were saying was false, that's a very different point, and one you'd need to back up with some evidence.

Otherwise, not much to see here really.

 


Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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Stirlingsays Flag 21 Sep 23 5.55pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

Might be worth seeing both sides before criticising, don't you think?

I will try and find it for balance.

The accuracy of statements given to the public is based on the available research and test results at that time.

Unsurprisingly, and very scientifically, that research creates new guidance over time.

When taking Paracetamol, do you still refer to the guidance issued in 1956? No. Because it's changed quite a bit since then.

It's a bit of a silly position.

If you're saying the CDC knew that what they were saying was false, that's a very different point, and one you'd need to back up with some evidence.

Otherwise, not much to see here really.

Yes, research away.

However, on your main contention I fully disagree with what you think here and I'll tell you why.

If aspects to a technology are new or unknown then those factors should be made clear. Not hidden away from the main advice.

It's all in how something is presented.

Science should not be presented in certainties unless they are known as certainties. For trust to be maintained then there should be more rigor and caution on what is stated as certain.

If something is unknown or isn't certain then claims to suggest the opposite should not happen.

If a technology changes....for example the Paracetamol tablet changes in composition then what is stated makes that clear and changes to reflect that.

Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Sep 2023 5.57pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards SW19 CPFC Flag Addiscombe West 21 Sep 23 6.19pm Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Yes, research away.

However, on your main contention I fully disagree with what you think here and I'll tell you why.

If aspects to a technology are new or unknown then those factors should be made clear. Not hidden away from the main advice.

It's all in how something is presented.

Science should not be presented in certainties unless they are known as certainties. For trust to be maintained then there should be more rigor and caution on what is stated as certain.

If something is unknown or isn't certain then claims to suggest the opposite should not happen.

If a technology changes....for example the Paracetamol tablet changes in composition then what is stated makes that clear and changes to reflect that.

Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Sep 2023 5.57pm)

According to your own link, all the CDC actually said was that the vaccine was safe for pregnant and breastfeeding women. Also mentioned was the anti-body transfer, which is seen as a benefit.

Now your boy Shellenberger is paraphrasing in that tweet of course, but current guidance includes the words 'Although the overall risks are low' re. vaccines and pregnancy, and 'Evidence continues to build' that they're safe before, during and after pregnancy. I'd be majorly surprised if the December 2020 guidance didn't have the same caveats, for rather obvious reasons. Lawsuits being one, very early days of the vaccine being the other.

The body that made the claim that you're highlighting as misleading wasn't even made by them – it was made by some outfit called 'The Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine'. Not the CDC. And this, it's worth noting, was December 2020. Not last month, for example.

EVEN THEN It's not 'presented in certainties' as you claim. Note the fact this

a) isn't the CDCs statement
b) uses the word 'unlikely' and 'less likely'. Not 'Will not' / 'Won't' etc etc.

“It is unlikely that the vaccine lipid would enter the bloodstream and reach breast tissue,” the Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine assured mothers in a statement on December 14, 2020. “If it does, it is even less likely that either the intact nanoparticle or mRNA transfer into milk.”

Jeez

And this is before I've even tried to find the historical CDC statement

Read your own stuff!

 


Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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Stirlingsays Flag 21 Sep 23 6.20pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

According to your own link, all the CDC actually said was that the vaccine was safe for pregnant and breastfeeding women. Also mentioned was the anti-body transfer, which is seen as a benefit.

Now your boy Shellenberger is paraphrasing in that tweet of course, but current guidance includes the words 'Although the overall risks are low' re. vaccines and pregnancy, and 'Evidence continues to build' that they're safe before, during and after pregnancy. I'd be majorly surprised if the December 2020 guidance didn't have the same caveats, for rather obvious reasons. Lawsuits being one, very early days of the vaccine being the other.

The body that made the claim that you're highlighting as misleading wasn't even made by them – it was made by some outfit called 'The Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine'. Not the CDC. And this, it's worth noting, was December 2020. Not last month, for example.

EVEN THEN It's not 'presented in certainties' as you claim. Note the fact this

a) isn't the CDCs statement
b) uses the word 'unlikely' and 'less likely'. Not 'Will not' / 'Won't' etc etc.

“It is unlikely that the vaccine lipid would enter the bloodstream and reach breast tissue,” the Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine assured mothers in a statement on December 14, 2020. “If it does, it is even less likely that either the intact nanoparticle or mRNA transfer into milk.”

Jeez

And this is before I've even tried to find the historical CDC statement

Read your own stuff!

If what you say here is accurate then your criticism is valid.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 21 Sep 23 7.14pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle


How should plans be made without comparisons?

With the best actual scientific knowledge available at the time. Comparisons can be made, but only if they have enough similarities to make them useful.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Teddy Eagle Flag 21 Sep 23 7.43pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

With the best actual scientific knowledge available at the time. Comparisons can be made, but only if they have enough similarities to make them useful.

Should be a few of them seeing how most of the world locked down.

 

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Forest Hillbilly Flag in a hidey-hole 21 Sep 23 8.22pm Send a Private Message to Forest Hillbilly Add Forest Hillbilly as a friend

Nothing is a certainty in science. (like politics)
Language is vital in conveying the level of uncertainty in statements.
You cannot prove something is certain (the uncertainty principle provides for that), you can only ever disprove something.

That's where levels of confidence comes into the final analysis. And this is the start of where ambiguity and "Get out of Jail FREE" cards come into play in any statements made.

 


I disengage, I turn the page.

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