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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 21 Sep 23 4.40pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
[Tweet Link] It would be good to see the originall CDC statement (and that date of that statement), as well as their current position and guidance before passing judgement on this post. However that would be too objective so here goes Gist of your point appears to be 'Government body makes statement based on available studies at the time, new study suggests guidance should be updated accordingly, therefore vaccine is unsafe'. OK Also considering the half life of mrna and zero evidence that trace amounts cause any harm whatsoever (mRNA, not DNA remember). What, exactly, is unsafe about their current guidance? Worth noting these excerpts as well, from what appears to be a very useful study, so thanks for sharing Our findings suggest that the COVID-19 vaccine mRNA administered to lactating mothers can spread systemically to the BM in the first two days after maternal vaccination. However, the mRNA was only occasionally detected in BM, in trace amounts, and mainly concentrated in BM EVs. The linkage analysis showed that the vaccine mRNA detected in BM was largely fragmented and retained only 1225% of the original vaccine mRNA integrity. While the vaccine mRNA seems to be translationally inactive, further investigation is required to determine the minimum amount of mRNA needed to elicit an immune response in newborns. Trace amounts (Good) Any trace mRNA in expressed breastmilk vanishes after 48 hours, so if you were to be ultra cautious, you'd just follow the new research/guidance and wait. The only vaccines I can find info on that should not be given during pregnancy/early stage breastfeeding are live ones. Such as MMR, Polio, Typhoid, Yellow fever etc. You only know what you know once you know it if they now don't bother updating guidance then sure, you'll quite rightly have a stick to beat them with
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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 21 Sep 23 4.52pm | |
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Originally posted by eaglesdare
A London Professor of Oncology calls for urgent stop to C19 boosters: "As an Oncologist I Am Seeing People With Stable Cancer Rapidly Relapse After a C19 Booster" Angus Dalgleish, Professor of Oncology at St. Georges Hospital Medical School London.
Ah 'Turbo Cancer'. Sure. Is your point that it won't be investigated? Because if it's a trend, rather obviously, it will be. Until then, burden of proof. Correlation, causation.
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Stirlingsays 21 Sep 23 5.08pm | |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
It would be good to see the originall CDC statement (and that date of that statement), as well as their current position and guidance before passing judgement on this post. However that would be too objective so here goes Gist of your point appears to be 'Government body makes statement based on available studies at the time, new study suggests guidance should be updated accordingly, therefore vaccine is unsafe'. OK Also considering the half life of mrna and zero evidence that trace amounts cause any harm whatsoever (mRNA, not DNA remember). What, exactly, is unsafe about their current guidance? Worth noting these excerpts as well, from what appears to be a very useful study, so thanks for sharing Our findings suggest that the COVID-19 vaccine mRNA administered to lactating mothers can spread systemically to the BM in the first two days after maternal vaccination. However, the mRNA was only occasionally detected in BM, in trace amounts, and mainly concentrated in BM EVs. The linkage analysis showed that the vaccine mRNA detected in BM was largely fragmented and retained only 1225% of the original vaccine mRNA integrity. While the vaccine mRNA seems to be translationally inactive, further investigation is required to determine the minimum amount of mRNA needed to elicit an immune response in newborns. Trace amounts (Good) Any trace mRNA in expressed breastmilk vanishes after 48 hours, so if you were to be ultra cautious, you'd just follow the new research/guidance and wait. The only vaccines I can find info on that should not be given during pregnancy/early stage breastfeeding are live ones. Such as MMR, Polio, Typhoid, Yellow fever etc. You only know what you know once you know it if they now don't bother updating guidance then sure, you'll quite rightly have a stick to beat them with You are referring to migrations that are also seemingly coming from the same source whose's information has been found to be too absolute. The original criticism seems to be correct. If you make a statement that none of this vaccine can be transmitted to the unborn and then that's found to be inaccurate then trust is undermined. Presumably some mothers would have taken that vaccine under false pretenses. Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Sep 2023 5.09pm)
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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 21 Sep 23 5.28pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
You are referring to migrations that are also seemingly coming from the same source whose's information has been found to be too absolute. The original criticism seems to be correct. If you make a statement that none of this vaccine can be transmitted to the unborn and then that's found to be inaccurate then trust is undermined. Presumably some mothers would have taken that vaccine under false pretenses. Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Sep 2023 5.09pm) So do you have a link to the original CDC statement? It's only false pretences if they knew the advice was false at the time it was given. Otherwise I think that unlikely but hard to know unless the original date and content of the statement is shared. There's also still nothing to suggest the vaccine is unsafe, which again I assume was the point of the link posting. Edited by SW19 CPFC (21 Sep 2023 5.36pm)
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Stirlingsays 21 Sep 23 5.37pm | |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
So do you have a link to the original CDC statement? It's only false pretences if they knew the advice was false at the time it was given. Other I think that unlikely but hard to know unless the original date and content of the statement is shared. There's also still nothing to suggest the vaccine is unsafe, which again I assume was the point of the link posting.
The point of the post wasn't on the question of vaccine safety, which to me is a separate question. It's on the accuracy of statements given by bodies to the public that then affect decisions organisations and individuals make.
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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 21 Sep 23 5.45pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
The point of the post wasn't on the question of vaccine safety, which to me is a separate question. It's on the accuracy of statements given by bodies to the public that then affect decisions organisations and individuals make. Might be worth seeing both sides before criticising, don't you think? I will try and find it for balance. The accuracy of statements given to the public is based on the available research and test results at that time. Unsurprisingly, and very scientifically, that research creates new guidance over time. When taking Paracetamol, do you still refer to the guidance issued in 1956? No. Because it's changed quite a bit since then. It's a bit of a silly position. If you're saying the CDC knew that what they were saying was false, that's a very different point, and one you'd need to back up with some evidence. Otherwise, not much to see here really.
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Stirlingsays 21 Sep 23 5.55pm | |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
Might be worth seeing both sides before criticising, don't you think? I will try and find it for balance. The accuracy of statements given to the public is based on the available research and test results at that time. Unsurprisingly, and very scientifically, that research creates new guidance over time. When taking Paracetamol, do you still refer to the guidance issued in 1956? No. Because it's changed quite a bit since then. It's a bit of a silly position. If you're saying the CDC knew that what they were saying was false, that's a very different point, and one you'd need to back up with some evidence. Otherwise, not much to see here really. Yes, research away. However, on your main contention I fully disagree with what you think here and I'll tell you why. If aspects to a technology are new or unknown then those factors should be made clear. Not hidden away from the main advice. It's all in how something is presented. Science should not be presented in certainties unless they are known as certainties. For trust to be maintained then there should be more rigor and caution on what is stated as certain. If something is unknown or isn't certain then claims to suggest the opposite should not happen. If a technology changes....for example the Paracetamol tablet changes in composition then what is stated makes that clear and changes to reflect that. Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Sep 2023 5.57pm)
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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 21 Sep 23 6.19pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Yes, research away. However, on your main contention I fully disagree with what you think here and I'll tell you why. If aspects to a technology are new or unknown then those factors should be made clear. Not hidden away from the main advice. It's all in how something is presented. Science should not be presented in certainties unless they are known as certainties. For trust to be maintained then there should be more rigor and caution on what is stated as certain. If something is unknown or isn't certain then claims to suggest the opposite should not happen. If a technology changes....for example the Paracetamol tablet changes in composition then what is stated makes that clear and changes to reflect that. Edited by Stirlingsays (21 Sep 2023 5.57pm) According to your own link, all the CDC actually said was that the vaccine was safe for pregnant and breastfeeding women. Also mentioned was the anti-body transfer, which is seen as a benefit. Now your boy Shellenberger is paraphrasing in that tweet of course, but current guidance includes the words 'Although the overall risks are low' re. vaccines and pregnancy, and 'Evidence continues to build' that they're safe before, during and after pregnancy. I'd be majorly surprised if the December 2020 guidance didn't have the same caveats, for rather obvious reasons. Lawsuits being one, very early days of the vaccine being the other. The body that made the claim that you're highlighting as misleading wasn't even made by them it was made by some outfit called 'The Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine'. Not the CDC. And this, it's worth noting, was December 2020. Not last month, for example. EVEN THEN It's not 'presented in certainties' as you claim. Note the fact this a) isn't the CDCs statement It is unlikely that the vaccine lipid would enter the bloodstream and reach breast tissue, the Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine assured mothers in a statement on December 14, 2020. If it does, it is even less likely that either the intact nanoparticle or mRNA transfer into milk. Jeez And this is before I've even tried to find the historical CDC statement Read your own stuff!
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Stirlingsays 21 Sep 23 6.20pm | |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
According to your own link, all the CDC actually said was that the vaccine was safe for pregnant and breastfeeding women. Also mentioned was the anti-body transfer, which is seen as a benefit. Now your boy Shellenberger is paraphrasing in that tweet of course, but current guidance includes the words 'Although the overall risks are low' re. vaccines and pregnancy, and 'Evidence continues to build' that they're safe before, during and after pregnancy. I'd be majorly surprised if the December 2020 guidance didn't have the same caveats, for rather obvious reasons. Lawsuits being one, very early days of the vaccine being the other. The body that made the claim that you're highlighting as misleading wasn't even made by them it was made by some outfit called 'The Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine'. Not the CDC. And this, it's worth noting, was December 2020. Not last month, for example. EVEN THEN It's not 'presented in certainties' as you claim. Note the fact this a) isn't the CDCs statement It is unlikely that the vaccine lipid would enter the bloodstream and reach breast tissue, the Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine assured mothers in a statement on December 14, 2020. If it does, it is even less likely that either the intact nanoparticle or mRNA transfer into milk. Jeez And this is before I've even tried to find the historical CDC statement Read your own stuff! If what you say here is accurate then your criticism is valid.
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 21 Sep 23 7.14pm | |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
With the best actual scientific knowledge available at the time. Comparisons can be made, but only if they have enough similarities to make them useful.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Teddy Eagle 21 Sep 23 7.43pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
With the best actual scientific knowledge available at the time. Comparisons can be made, but only if they have enough similarities to make them useful. Should be a few of them seeing how most of the world locked down.
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Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 21 Sep 23 8.22pm | |
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Nothing is a certainty in science. (like politics) That's where levels of confidence comes into the final analysis. And this is the start of where ambiguity and "Get out of Jail FREE" cards come into play in any statements made.
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