Who is to blame?

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Who is to blame?

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Stirlingsays 16 Dec 19 5.09pm
Originally posted by ASCPFC I love pork pies. Not so keen on Scotch eggs. Where do you stand on those pork pie slices with the egg in the middle? 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

16 Dec 19 5.09pm

Originally posted by ASCPFC

I love pork pies. Not so keen on Scotch eggs.

Where do you stand on those pork pie slices with the egg in the middle?

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 16 Dec 19 5.11pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Where do you stand on those pork pie slices with the egg in the middle? Not my cup of tea. I prefer the Melton Mowbray originals. Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 16 Dec 19 5.11pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Where do you stand on those pork pie slices with the egg in the middle?

Not my cup of tea. I prefer the Melton Mowbray originals.

Red and Blue Army!

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Stirlingsays 16 Dec 19 5.13pm
Originally posted by cryrst Stirling could be a gal. That's not very PC wissie. That's an example of where we be with labour by the way. Do you see why the tories are a better fit atm. Give the police some self respect and ability to do their job. Not arrest people for clapping too loud. etc etc. Left wing politics doesnt fit in right now. Far left even less so. If BJ doesnt follow through you and yours can call him out on election night in 5 years. At least sit back, sip your chardonnay and watch it fall apart if that's your foresight. It's very disingenuous to predict epic failure on day 3 tbh. I could be......but it's not Wednesday. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

16 Dec 19 5.13pm

Originally posted by cryrst

Stirling could be a gal.
That's not very PC wissie.
That's an example of where we be with labour by the way.
Do you see why the tories are a better fit atm.
Give the police some self respect and ability to do their job. Not arrest people for clapping too loud.
etc etc.
Left wing politics doesnt fit in right now.
Far left even less so.
If BJ doesnt follow through you and yours can call him out on election night in 5 years.
At least sit back, sip your chardonnay and watch it fall apart if that's your foresight.
It's very disingenuous to predict epic failure on day 3 tbh.

I could be......but it's not Wednesday.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Beanyboysmd 16 Dec 19 5.14pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle For what I expect you to ask and that, of course, depends on your perspective. If you voted Tory then right now maybe you feel only celebrations are in order, but I am not so sure. Since the size of the majority was known just about everyone has suggested this means that Johnson's new government can sideline the ERG, ignore Farage and pursue a much softer Brexit deal. Something they must do if they stand any chance of reaching a deal in 12 months. Along with the fact that many of their new MPs come from constituencies with very different priorities to their southern heartlands this could well mean a move to the centre is about to happen, something seemingly confirmed today by Johnson himself. For a hardline Brexiteer this has to be a disaster. Who is to blame? Farage is! If he hadn't tried (and succeeded) to spike the LibDems in the south by standing down all those candidates, the Tory majority would have been much smaller, and he might even have had a handful of his own MPs. With a smaller majority Johnson would need the ERG onside and his room for maneuver would be much less. If we now get a soft Brexit then you can blame Farage. If you are a remainer then the blame falls on several heads. Cameron for his miscalculation but mostly on Corbyn for choosing to stay as Labour leader when it was obvious that he is so unpopular that failure was inevitable. The opportunity existed a few months ago to remove Johnson, install a temporary PM and a cross party government of national unity with the sole purpose of holding a confirmatory vote on whether the country wanted the "deal" or now wanted to remain. It only required Corbyn to agree and then stand aside. His stubbornness is to blame for the fact that although even with this landslide result more people voted for a party that wanted such a vote than did not, we still don't get one. The other thing to blame is our out of date voting system which is no longer fit for purpose. Many, if not most, people seem to have voted against something rather than for it. This isn't healthy in a democracy. We need people to vote for what they want and for that to be proportionately represented in the Parliament so that compromises can be reached by our representatives. This is a watershed moment in the UK's political life. A united Ireland now looks a racing certainty to me in the next 10 years. Scotland looks less certain but will be a continuing thorn. I am not though without hope. The coming days and weeks will tell a lot. If Johnson reshuffles and sends the likes of Rees Mogg and Patel to the back benches then he will have made a good start. I hope Labour totally collapses and that a new centre left party emerges, funded by both more moderate unions, and socially responsible wealthy citizens and businesses. Whether the current LibDems provide the foundations for such a development is an open question, given the failed attempt by the 2 Davids almost 40 years ago but we need such a party now as never before. There are many wonderful politicians who would immediately fit into such a party. All they need is the structure. So I don't vote for any of the main parties but I am very much a leftie, but the numbers involved are interesting. The vote between left and right parties were about even (Its been that way for a long time now) so a first past the post system will never suit anyone but the right. Wierdly if the Brexit party didn't s*** the bed at the last minute then we could have been looking at a hung parliament right now. Labours demise could have been predicted if people had paid more attention to Scotland. Voting intentions for Labour were nose-diving for the last year and most people predicted that northern England was starting to drift the same way. Labour had 2 choices, stop the Tories or stop brexit. They tried to stop Brexit and failed at both. Nobody who wanted Brexit wanted another referendum and even a lot of remainers weren't keen. Telling 60% of your constituents that you know better was a terminal mistake. If Corbyn had said "We agree with the Tories on Brexit, we will try to get a better deal and if we cant, we will use the terms that May or Johnson got". It would have been a strait out battle on non-brexit issues. Even with Corbyns problems with his past I think he would probably have edged in. He just didn't learn from the LibDems, they announced they would hold a 2nd referendum or yank us out of Brexit and even remainers didn't switch to them. Tories only gained 1% more than before and that election was seen as a disaster so this wasnt a case of the Tories doing something right, it was a simple case of Labour getting things horribly wrong by resonating with the wrong people. On the subject of Northern Ireland and Scotland, until the next polls come in, its going to be really hard to know where they stand, I am still scratching my head on how Scotland democratically get Independence now,which I hate. Its a painfully childish approach that borders on turning your phone off in case your girlfriend dumps you. Cameron only let them ask the question because polls had yes at about 25% at the time, they wont make that mistake again. With Northern Ireland its out of Westminster hands so they can have one whenever they want but before the election the numbers were short, don't expect change though because no proud Brit is going to decide they want to be Irish no matter what politics are going on in the background. Farage is going to move to America and make a fortune being a public speaker, he hasnt given a toss about any of this for a long time. He will pop back if he wants attention or money but he will check out any day now. God Ive talked a lot and not really said anything! Tried to be as impartial as I can be but there is no such thing as an impartial thought really!
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Beanyboysmd

16 Dec 19 5.14pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

For what I expect you to ask and that, of course, depends on your perspective.

If you voted Tory then right now maybe you feel only celebrations are in order, but I am not so sure. Since the size of the majority was known just about everyone has suggested this means that Johnson's new government can sideline the ERG, ignore Farage and pursue a much softer Brexit deal. Something they must do if they stand any chance of reaching a deal in 12 months. Along with the fact that many of their new MPs come from constituencies with very different priorities to their southern heartlands this could well mean a move to the centre is about to happen, something seemingly confirmed today by Johnson himself.

For a hardline Brexiteer this has to be a disaster. Who is to blame? Farage is! If he hadn't tried (and succeeded) to spike the LibDems in the south by standing down all those candidates, the Tory majority would have been much smaller, and he might even have had a handful of his own MPs. With a smaller majority Johnson would need the ERG onside and his room for maneuver would be much less. If we now get a soft Brexit then you can blame Farage.

If you are a remainer then the blame falls on several heads. Cameron for his miscalculation but mostly on Corbyn for choosing to stay as Labour leader when it was obvious that he is so unpopular that failure was inevitable. The opportunity existed a few months ago to remove Johnson, install a temporary PM and a cross party government of national unity with the sole purpose of holding a confirmatory vote on whether the country wanted the "deal" or now wanted to remain. It only required Corbyn to agree and then stand aside. His stubbornness is to blame for the fact that although even with this landslide result more people voted for a party that wanted such a vote than did not, we still don't get one.

The other thing to blame is our out of date voting system which is no longer fit for purpose. Many, if not most, people seem to have voted against something rather than for it. This isn't healthy in a democracy. We need people to vote for what they want and for that to be proportionately represented in the Parliament so that compromises can be reached by our representatives.

This is a watershed moment in the UK's political life. A united Ireland now looks a racing certainty to me in the next 10 years. Scotland looks less certain but will be a continuing thorn.

I am not though without hope. The coming days and weeks will tell a lot. If Johnson reshuffles and sends the likes of Rees Mogg and Patel to the back benches then he will have made a good start. I hope Labour totally collapses and that a new centre left party emerges, funded by both more moderate unions, and socially responsible wealthy citizens and businesses. Whether the current LibDems provide the foundations for such a development is an open question, given the failed attempt by the 2 Davids almost 40 years ago but we need such a party now as never before. There are many wonderful politicians who would immediately fit into such a party. All they need is the structure.

So I don't vote for any of the main parties but I am very much a leftie, but the numbers involved are interesting. The vote between left and right parties were about even (Its been that way for a long time now) so a first past the post system will never suit anyone but the right. Wierdly if the Brexit party didn't s*** the bed at the last minute then we could have been looking at a hung parliament right now.

Labours demise could have been predicted if people had paid more attention to Scotland. Voting intentions for Labour were nose-diving for the last year and most people predicted that northern England was starting to drift the same way.

Labour had 2 choices, stop the Tories or stop brexit. They tried to stop Brexit and failed at both. Nobody who wanted Brexit wanted another referendum and even a lot of remainers weren't keen. Telling 60% of your constituents that you know better was a terminal mistake.

If Corbyn had said "We agree with the Tories on Brexit, we will try to get a better deal and if we cant, we will use the terms that May or Johnson got". It would have been a strait out battle on non-brexit issues. Even with Corbyns problems with his past I think he would probably have edged in.

He just didn't learn from the LibDems, they announced they would hold a 2nd referendum or yank us out of Brexit and even remainers didn't switch to them.

Tories only gained 1% more than before and that election was seen as a disaster so this wasnt a case of the Tories doing something right, it was a simple case of Labour getting things horribly wrong by resonating with the wrong people.

On the subject of Northern Ireland and Scotland, until the next polls come in, its going to be really hard to know where they stand, I am still scratching my head on how Scotland democratically get Independence now,which I hate. Its a painfully childish approach that borders on turning your phone off in case your girlfriend dumps you. Cameron only let them ask the question because polls had yes at about 25% at the time, they wont make that mistake again.

With Northern Ireland its out of Westminster hands so they can have one whenever they want but before the election the numbers were short, don't expect change though because no proud Brit is going to decide they want to be Irish no matter what politics are going on in the background.

Farage is going to move to America and make a fortune being a public speaker, he hasnt given a toss about any of this for a long time. He will pop back if he wants attention or money but he will check out any day now.

God Ive talked a lot and not really said anything! Tried to be as impartial as I can be but there is no such thing as an impartial thought really!

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Stirlingsays 16 Dec 19 5.15pm
Originally posted by ASCPFC Not my cup of tea. I prefer the Melton Mowbray originals. I like the small ones with cracked pepper. Good old traditional nosh, you can't beat it. Edited by Stirlingsays (16 Dec 2019 5.15pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

16 Dec 19 5.15pm

Originally posted by ASCPFC

Not my cup of tea. I prefer the Melton Mowbray originals.

I like the small ones with cracked pepper.

Good old traditional nosh, you can't beat it.

Edited by Stirlingsays (16 Dec 2019 5.15pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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chris123 hove actually 16 Dec 19 5.19pm
Originally posted by ASCPFC I love pork pies. Not so keen on Scotch eggs. Oh the black pudding Scotch eggs from Fortnums.
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chris123

hove actually 16 Dec 19 5.19pm

Originally posted by ASCPFC

I love pork pies. Not so keen on Scotch eggs.

Oh the black pudding Scotch eggs from Fortnums.

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PalazioVecchio south pole 16 Dec 19 5.32pm
Originally posted by Beanyboysmd With Northern Ireland its out of Westminster hands so they can have one whenever they want but before the election the numbers were short, don't expect change though because no proud Brit is going to decide they want to be Irish no matter what politics are going on in the background. ! there are sectarian tatooed steroid UVF lunatics (who hate the republic) that now have dual nationality and both passports. Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford
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PalazioVecchio

south pole 16 Dec 19 5.32pm

Send a Private Message to PalazioVecchio

Originally posted by Beanyboysmd

With Northern Ireland its out of Westminster hands so they can have one whenever they want but before the election the numbers were short, don't expect change though because no proud Brit is going to decide they want to be Irish no matter what politics are going on in the background.

there are sectarian tatooed steroid UVF lunatics (who hate the republic) that now have dual nationality and both passports.

Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 16 Dec 19 5.33pm
Originally posted by chris123 They represent their parties. I am accused of telling people too often that they are wrong and then someone posts this. If people don't want to be told they are wrong I suggest they don't make incorrect statements. So I am sorry to tell you but:- No they don't. They represent their electorate. ALL of them, whichever party they voted for and all of those who did not, or could not, vote. That is their job. They belong to a party but they don't represent it. That's evidenced by the fact that when an MP crosses the floor and joins another party they don't automatically have to resign. Even though many here think they ought to. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 16 Dec 19 5.33pm

Originally posted by chris123

They represent their parties.

I am accused of telling people too often that they are wrong and then someone posts this. If people don't want to be told they are wrong I suggest they don't make incorrect statements.

So I am sorry to tell you but:-

No they don't.

They represent their electorate. ALL of them, whichever party they voted for and all of those who did not, or could not, vote. That is their job.

They belong to a party but they don't represent it.

That's evidenced by the fact that when an MP crosses the floor and joins another party they don't automatically have to resign. Even though many here think they ought to.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Beanyboysmd 16 Dec 19 5.37pm
Originally posted by PalazioVecchio there are sectarian tatooed steroid UVF lunatics (who hate the republic) that now have dual nationality and both passports. They might have both passports but if it came to a referendum vote, they will never change their minds. It would be like asking what would have to happen in this country for you to want this country to be incorporated into France. Likewise people on the other side wont changer their mind either. Both sides have their share of nutters but at least 95% of people would never vote to have their nationality changed.
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Beanyboysmd

16 Dec 19 5.37pm

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

there are sectarian tatooed steroid UVF lunatics (who hate the republic) that now have dual nationality and both passports.

They might have both passports but if it came to a referendum vote, they will never change their minds. It would be like asking what would have to happen in this country for you to want this country to be incorporated into France. Likewise people on the other side wont changer their mind either. Both sides have their share of nutters but at least 95% of people would never vote to have their nationality changed.

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chris123 hove actually 16 Dec 19 5.39pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle I am accused of telling people too often that they are wrong and then someone posts this. If people don't want to be told they are wrong I suggest they don't make incorrect statements. So I am sorry to tell you but:- No they don't. They represent their electorate. ALL of them, whichever party they voted for and all of those who did not, or could not, vote. That is their job. They belong to a party but they don't represent it. That's evidenced by the fact that when an MP crosses the floor and joins another party they don't automatically have to resign. Even though many here think they ought to. [Link]
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chris123

hove actually 16 Dec 19 5.39pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I am accused of telling people too often that they are wrong and then someone posts this. If people don't want to be told they are wrong I suggest they don't make incorrect statements.

So I am sorry to tell you but:-

No they don't.

They represent their electorate. ALL of them, whichever party they voted for and all of those who did not, or could not, vote. That is their job.

They belong to a party but they don't represent it.

That's evidenced by the fact that when an MP crosses the floor and joins another party they don't automatically have to resign. Even though many here think they ought to.

[Link]

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eagleman13 On The Road To Hell & Alicante 16 Dec 19 6.22pm
Originally posted by ASCPFC I love pork pies. Not so keen on Scotch eggs. Sod politics, can we get to things that really matter. Pork pies n Scogch Eggs. Mellton Mowbray pork pies are the ballcocks, even with egg. As for Scotch eggs, im doinig my own homeade ones, Chorizo sausage with hen eggs. Over to you HOLers(fed up with political threads) This operation, will make the 'Charge Of The Light Brigade' seem like a simple military exercise.
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eagleman13

On The Road To Hell & Alicante 16 Dec 19 6.22pm

Originally posted by ASCPFC

I love pork pies. Not so keen on Scotch eggs.

Sod politics, can we get to things that really matter. Pork pies n Scogch Eggs.

Mellton Mowbray pork pies are the ballcocks, even with egg. As for Scotch eggs, im doinig my own homeade ones, Chorizo sausage with hen eggs.

Over to you HOLers(fed up with political threads)

This operation, will make the 'Charge Of The Light Brigade' seem like a simple military exercise.

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Stirlingsays 16 Dec 19 6.26pm
They represent both, unless they are independents. Listen to this guy talk as though this is some sort of 'set' in stone aspect. Some are more independently minded than others on certain issues but it's plain as the nose on anyone's face that an MP represents both their voters and the party they stand for. If they didn't agree with most of the policies of that party they wouldn't be chosen to represent it. This guy. Edited by Stirlingsays (16 Dec 2019 6.29pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

16 Dec 19 6.26pm

They represent both, unless they are independents.

Listen to this guy talk as though this is some sort of 'set' in stone aspect.

Some are more independently minded than others on certain issues but it's plain as the nose on anyone's face that an MP represents both their voters and the party they stand for.

If they didn't agree with most of the policies of that party they wouldn't be chosen to represent it.

This guy.

Edited by Stirlingsays (16 Dec 2019 6.29pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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