This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.
Register | Edit Profile | Subscriptions | Forum Rules | Log In
Stirlingsays 13 Aug 17 12.07pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by nickgusset
At least 124 people have died since opposition-led protests aimed at toppling the government began. In addition to those killed, hundreds have been injured in the protests. Right-wing opposition leaders have attempted to portray the deaths as examples of state repression and evidence of the "dictatorship" that they are aiming to topple. Mainstream media have by and large echoed this version of events, using titles like “Venezuelan Regime Has Blood On Its Hands” and “Venezuela's Tiananmen Moment." Some outlets have even gone as far as claiming the elected government of President Nicolas Maduro as engaging in “a campaign of state genocide.” The reality of the situation on the ground, however, demonstrates something very different. Here’s a breakdown of those killed since the opposition protests began. Breakdown is in the link. Thanks for providing that. It's interesting that you ignore the main media view on this and search out an alternative view. But I won't criticise that. However I'm suspicious of this article. For example, the attached graphic of a snapshot of deaths. If headlines the view that five were killed by Police yet ignores the security deaths shown on its graphic itself...why just mention Police? Also it has twelve pro government deaths yet manages to somehow ascertain that these other deaths are not caused by partizans. I'm suspicious of the article but at least it's another view. I will continue to try to ensure that I have as accurate a view as possible. I'll look to see what human rights watch are saying. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Aug 2017 12.17pm) Attachment: ven.JPG (53.52Kb)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Stirlingsays 13 Aug 17 12.09pm | |
---|---|
Yeah, I am a big fan of his....don't agree with him on everything but he hits lots of marks....and neo nazi is nearer...if still not accurate.....media equals sensationalism. Also, I agree that far right groups are just wrong and pushing the wrong path. Their way leads to race war....pretty much like their left wing opposites. I don't believe that society should deal with its cohesion problems like that. Tolerance, whilst a rigid defence of secularism....This means the power of religions must legally be kept separate from politics and the legal system....and away from schools. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Aug 2017 12.16pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Stirlingsays 13 Aug 17 12.33pm | |
---|---|
I went to human rights watch and looked up Venezuela to see what they had to say. It's a stark contrast to Nick's linked to article that blames most deaths on the opposition. You know Nick...I'm starting to think that perhaps your posts should come with a disclaimer. The human rights watch linked to video: Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Aug 2017 12.34pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
nickgusset Shizzlehurst 13 Aug 17 12.46pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I went to human rights watch and looked up Venezuela to see what they had to say. It's a stark contrast to Nick's linked to article that blames most deaths on the opposition. You know Nick...I'm starting to think that perhaps your posts should come with a disclaimer. The human rights watch linked to video: Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Aug 2017 12.34pm) Interesting that the 3rd link talks about a lack of medicines and food. Interior and Justice Minister Nestor Reverol has claimed that the U.S. is attempting a “financial coup” to “strangle our country,” through hyperinflation and political turmoil in order to end the 18-year-old Bolivarian Revolution. But that perspective is rarely given credence in the MSM. More often, we’re told of Maduro’s “economic incompetence,” government “mismanagement of funds,” and “rampant corruption”. As Jeffrey Taylor wrote in Foreign Policy (March 21, 2016), “Maduro’s response” to food shortages and currency crises “has been to blame everything on scheming ‘Yanquis’…” It’s important to emphasize that Venezuela is not fully socialist, but has a “mixed” economy, with the private sector involved in many crucial sectors such as food distribution, pharmaceuticals, consumer product importation and sales, and the media. John Pilger has described Venezuela as a “reformist social democracy with a capitalist base” – a description that helps us understand what is happening there. As Caleb T. Maupin wrote for Mint Press News last year (July 12, 2016), “It’s odd that the mainstream press blames ‘socialism’ for the food problems in Venezuela, when the food distributors remain in the hands of private corporations,” who are “running general sabotage” of the system. That sabotage by the private sector has taken the form of hoarding of selected items, price speculation, keeping supermarket shelves empty, sending food shipments to neighbouring countries, even setting food warehouse stockpiles on fire. This purposely-generated scarcity creates chaos and discontent, further undermining the government. Maria Paez Victor notes that “The opposition orchestrated economic sabotage, corporate smuggling, black market currency manipulations, full scale hoarding of food and essential products. They closed highways, burned public buildings including a packed maternity hospital, from a helicopter dropped grenades on to the Supreme Court offices, have assaulted, lynched and even burned alive [at least 21] young men of dark skin ‘who looked Chavista’. This is a violent opposition steeped in racism and classism against their own people and in the service of foreign powers and Big Oil.” from [Link]
Edited by nickgusset (13 Aug 2017 12.49pm)
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Stirlingsays 13 Aug 17 12.57pm | |
---|---|
Hahaha...this is Nick's idea of providing balance. All that terrible stuff and what interests you is moaning about private business in Venezuela....it's comedy if nothing else. You take an article written by Joyce Nelson who is a 72 year old left wing progressive freelance writer/researcher....She's a platform for the regime's views because.....'must....protect....socialism'. Frankly what the fcuk does she know about what's going on in Venezuela? At 72 she down there at the protests is she....detailing events....absolute BS. I'll prefer to take my news on that from human rights organizations. You can take it from 'progressive' echo chambers....that way your worldview isn't too damaged. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Aug 2017 1.01pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
nickgusset Shizzlehurst 13 Aug 17 1.10pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Hahaha...this is Nick's idea of providing balance. All that terrible stuff and what interests you is moaning about private business in Venezuela....it's comedy if nothing else. You take an article written by Joyce Nelson who is a 72 year old left wing progressive freelance writer/researcher....She's a platform for the regime's views because.....'must....protect....socialism'. Frankly what the fcuk does she know about what's going on in Venezuela? At 72 she down there at the protests is she....detailing events....absolute BS. I'll prefer to take my news on that from human rights organizations. You can take it from 'progressive' echo chambers....that way your worldview isn't too damaged. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Aug 2017 1.01pm) More than one side to every story. You seem neglect this in this case.
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
nickgusset Shizzlehurst 13 Aug 17 1.34pm | |
---|---|
No of course they're not Nazis. Attachment: IMG_20170813_133122.jpg (145.75Kb)
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Stirlingsays 13 Aug 17 1.37pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by nickgusset
More than one side to every story. You seem neglect this in this case. There is....but when I try to gauge the truth of a matter like this I try to find opinions that don't come with an automatic political bias....I guess that is where we are different. Well, everyone has a bias of course but what I'm looking for is a secular democratic bias. When it comes to stuff that doesn't involve life and death....well...I don't mind a bit of knockabout...the push and pull of the political dance.....But when it gets down to people being slaughtered...people taking you away in the middle of the night.... I tend to become much more serious.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Stirlingsays 13 Aug 17 1.41pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by nickgusset
No of course they're not Nazis. Well, that guy thinks he is. I bet he don't know the first thing about national socialism. Most of those flags are confederate flags. That's about the south..wasn't this protest about the removing of a statute of General Lee?..I doubt they support slavery. But maybe someone should actually ask them? Maybe they do..... Well Tim Pool has asked plenty of times....But you aren't interested. You're that guy who just shouts 'Nazi'. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Aug 2017 1.42pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
nickgusset Shizzlehurst 13 Aug 17 1.48pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by Stirlingsays
There is....but when I try to gauge the truth of a matter like this I try to find opinions that don't come with an automatic political bias....I guess that is where we are different. Well, everyone has a bias of course but what I'm looking for is a secular democratic bias. When it comes to stuff that doesn't involve life and death....well...I don't mind a bit of knockabout...the push and pull of the political dance.....But when it gets down to people being slaughtered...people taking you away in the middle of the night.... I tend to become much more serious. You don't think there is political bias in establishment news sources. Labour MP Chris Williamson. We Mustn’t Back Another US-Led Regime Change In Latin America The Tories have been fanning the flames and a handful of New Labour diehards have jumped onto the bandwagon to demand that the Labour leader condemn Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro. Jeremy is on record supporting the Bolivarian revolution that started with the election of Hugo Chavez in 1998. The Chavez administration secured colossal improvements in living standards in the intervening years up to his untimely death on March 5 2013. Oil revenues were used as a solidarity tool to address the hideous inequality that afflicted the country after years of neoliberal fundamentalism. This saw a massive investment programme in healthcare, housing and free education, enabling poor Venezuelans to access decent housing, healthcare, medicines and subsidised food for those in need. It also resulted in large numbers of jobs being created in the public sector, giving people the dignity of work in secure employment. Consequently, poverty was slashed, infant mortality was substantially reduced and, according to Unesco, Venezuela eliminated illiteracy in 2005. This spending on education empowered people and facilitated grassroots political participation. Jeremy was therefore completely correct to commend the achievements in Venezuela. But the proxy-warmongers have seized the opportunity to use Venezuela’s current travails to express faux outrage about the “regime.” The collapse in the price of oil has inevitably affected Venezuela’s economy. This has been made worse by economic sabotage, by the country’s elites, to create shortages in the shops, widespread violent street protests and external interference by the US. The US Department of State openly budgets to spend millions of dollars every year to support right-wing opposition forces in Venezuela. Even former president Barack Obama signed an executive order declaring Venezuela an “unusual and extraordinary threat” to the national security of the US, which is utterly absurd. It is the combination of these factors together with alleged cronyism, corruption and inefficiency that has made the job of Maduro’s government almost impossible since Chavez died. The US has a long history of seeking regime change in Latin America. Thousands of declassified CIA documents under Bill Clinton revealed that the CIA constructed and supported “Operation Condor” to overthrow democratically elected leftist governments via bloody coups in what the US patronisingly describes as its “backyard.” The US installed repugnant right-wing military dictatorships that systematically exterminated tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of leftist opponents. Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay and Uruguay all had their governments overthrown with the help of the CIA, not to mention US involvement in Nicaragua. Operation Condor began in Chile, with the CIA-backed 1973 coup against Salvador Allende. The tactics deployed against Allende are chillingly similar to those being employed in Venezuela today. Richard Nixon said he wanted to “make the economy [in Chile] scream.” The economic disruption preceded the military coup led by Augusto Pinochet, who imposed a repressive regime that routinely tortured and murdered political opponents. Chavez himself was subject to a coup attempt in 2002, but a popular uprising forced the conspirators out and Chavez was reinstated within two days. But none of this context is given by the British media, nor the Tories who are ideologically linked to the neoliberal agenda of Venezuela’s elites. It is perhaps understandable that Labour’s political enemies are using Venezuela’s difficulties to make mischief, but it is frustrating to see the dwindling band of New Labour neocons doing likewise. They conveniently ignore the history and the extreme violence of the right-wing opposition groups. Thanks to the hysterical media hyperbole, casual observers could be forgiven for thinking that Venezuela is in the grip of a totalitarian despot. Yet it is a highly democratic country whose elections have been observed by former US president Jimmy Carter. He said: “As a matter of fact, of the 92 elections that we’ve monitored, I would say that the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world.” I wonder what those who are attacking Venezuela would say if similar violent street protests were taking place in Britain? We know what one Tory MP, Alan Duncan, thinks. In 2008 he said that people who were peacefully protesting outside Parliament against the planned expansion of Heathrow were “bloody well lucky not to be shot or gassed.” Yet as far as Duncan and co are concerned, the extremely violent street protests in Venezuela are acceptable and it is the Venezuelan government that should be condemned for holding a Constituent Assembly election. Nicolas Maduro called the election, which is provided for in the country’s constitution, in an attempt to bring an end to the bloodshed on the streets and reconcile the country. The Assembly’s job is to amend the country’s constitution, as was done in 1999 using the same process. There was nothing to stop the right-wing opposition contesting the election, but they chose to boycott it and call more demonstrations. Of course, the truth is the US would dearly love its petroleum corporations to gain control of Venezuela’s oil reserves, which are the largest in the world. That is the main reason why they want a compliant government in charge. Having said all that, Venezuela is not a perfect democracy. But far from enhancing democracy, imposing sanctions and seeking to isolate the country could destroy it and herald in another brutal dictatorship, which would be disastrous for the poor in Venezuela. That is why we should not only be calling for human rights to be upheld by Nicolas Maduro’s administration, we must also call on the right-wing opposition to do likewise. We should also demand that the US stops interfering in Venezuela’s affairs to bring about regime change and call on them to help facilitate reconciliation instead.
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Stirlingsays 13 Aug 17 1.57pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by nickgusset
You don't think there is political bias in establishment news sources. There is truth in this...I'd already spoken of bias....I'll ignore the Labour MP who you could direct the same message to....He makes unbacked claims that show his own biases. However, I think that when you start to criticise 'human rights watch' I think you have to detail where it is going wrong. I haven't heard you do that.....All you keep doing is cut and pasting. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Aug 2017 2.00pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
crystal balls The Garden of Earthly Delights 13 Aug 17 2.03pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Could you stop mis-labelling them, they aren't 'Nazis'. 'Nazis', are specific to their time and place....It's just a silly rallying cry. They are the far right from what I can tell....I find it hard to gather up the interest to find out.....But I know they aren't 'Nazis' Nick. Well the mayor of Charlottesville refers to them as "Nazis", [Link] in fact, there has long been an American Nazi party, Emboldened by Trump and his courting of these groups they have joined with other white supremacists and now look like they're confident enough to go overground
I used to be immortal |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Registration is now on our new message board
To login with your existing username you will need to convert your account over to the new message board.
All images and text on this site are copyright © 1999-2024 The Holmesdale Online, unless otherwise stated.
Web Design by Guntrisoft Ltd.