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Hrolf The Ganger 22 Jun 17 10.25am | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
We share lots of common ground and previous to a former conversation I understand your choices for your children....but it doesn't chance the fact that grammar schools are still an unfairness. Luck plays a significant factor in any success story and so if you are going with 'I'm alright Jack' I'm not entirely sure why those in lesser positions should listen. Equality of opportunity not outcome. We should all support moving towards a level playing field. That's the only honest way to a meritocracy.
It is a great ideal but it can never happen all the time humans are humans. Elitism is an inevitable consequence of evolution. Grand statement of the day.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Jun 17 10.26am | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Equality of opportunity not outcome. We should all support moving towards a level playing field. That's the only honest way to a meritocracy. Edited by Stirlingsays (22 Jun 2017 2.00am) Pretty much. I don't believe in the possibility of a meritocracy, but I think we can get 'close enough'. I believe that existence should provide opportunities throughout life for experience and self improvement, and not just financially, but experientially. Its important that opportunity also includes 'joy'. Existence without pleasure and joy, is meaningless - To paraphrase Emma Goldman, 'If I can't dance, its not my revolution'.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Hrolf The Ganger 22 Jun 17 10.28am | |
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Originally posted by .TUX.
Once again you ask me to provide evidence for something that you have seen for yourself. You're better than that. #Should'vegonetoSpecsavers I'm 53 and I don't accept that my generation or the two previous ones had it 'easy'.We had it different. Housing is an issue now and no one can deny that but it is just today's problem, Yesterdays had plenty of their own.
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Hrolf The Ganger 22 Jun 17 10.31am | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Pretty much. I don't believe in the possibility of a meritocracy, but I think we can get 'close enough'. I believe that existence should provide opportunities throughout life for experience and self improvement, and not just financially, but experientially. Its important that opportunity also includes 'joy'. Existence without pleasure and joy, is meaningless - To paraphrase Emma Goldman, 'If I can't dance, its not my revolution'. So very true. Life is not about work of wealth. It is about knowing that life is short and you had better try to be happy.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Jun 17 10.32am | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
It is a great ideal but it can never happen all the time humans are humans. Elitism is an inevitable consequence of evolution. Grand statement of the day. Evolution is directionless, to presents no favour, only random selection and sexual selection. Arguably, evolution doesn't favour the elite in the long term (small breeding populations, reduced access to new beneficial traits, highly dependency on a environmental advantages, minimal elimination of negative traits because of social advantage). "Rats evolve much faster than humans capacity to render them extinct." High breeding rates, birth rates, higher death rates, dangerous environments tend to hone evolution. I think we can regulate sufficiently to benefit from meritocracy to the point that nepotism and personal bias is reduced to a minimal influence.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Jun 17 10.35am | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
I'm 53 and I don't accept that my generation or the two previous ones had it 'easy'.We had it different. Housing is an issue now and no one can deny that but it is just today's problem, Yesterdays had plenty of their own. I think previous generations problems were different, my dad lost two sisters to diseases that are now 'trivial complaints'. My grand parents were involved in a massive f**k off war. My parents were limited educationally. But no of those generations were 'financially oppressed' to conform to a very narrow concept of 'success', work provided for them - and I believe that is a central necessity for a health society, that work should provide a reasonable life, with access to pleasures. Not just existing.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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hedgehog50 Croydon 22 Jun 17 10.42am | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Pretty much. I don't believe in the possibility of a meritocracy, but I think we can get 'close enough'. I believe that existence should provide opportunities throughout life for experience and self improvement, and not just financially, but experientially. Its important that opportunity also includes 'joy'. Existence without pleasure and joy, is meaningless - To paraphrase Emma Goldman, 'If I can't dance, its not my revolution'. This is all a bit vague, different people get pleasure and joy from things that others would find generates opposite feelings. I expect terrorists get some pleasure and joy from their activities. Edited by hedgehog50 (22 Jun 2017 10.42am)
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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npn Crowborough 22 Jun 17 10.42am | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
I'm 53 and I don't accept that my generation or the two previous ones had it 'easy'.We had it different. Housing is an issue now and no one can deny that but it is just today's problem, Yesterdays had plenty of their own. I've been pondering this one. My parents, and most of my extended family of that generation, never owned a house, and I don't think we were unusual in that. A large number of my peer group are also not home owners. It seems that home ownership has only been a 'thing' for the working class for one, or maybe two generations. So are we now just reverting to the normal state of affairs on home ownership, in that it's not necessarily the normal course of events, and the majority won't be able to afford it? Obviously that then becomes a state issue to ensure there's enough social housing available to keep rents reasonable and preferably own enough themselves to keep any private landlords in check (it's a lot harder to inflate rent if there are options with the council at more reasonable rates)
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Hrolf The Ganger 22 Jun 17 10.56am | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Evolution is directionless, to presents no favour, only random selection and sexual selection. Arguably, evolution doesn't favour the elite in the long term (small breeding populations, reduced access to new beneficial traits, highly dependency on a environmental advantages, minimal elimination of negative traits because of social advantage). "Rats evolve much faster than humans capacity to render them extinct." High breeding rates, birth rates, higher death rates, dangerous environments tend to hone evolution. I think we can regulate sufficiently to benefit from meritocracy to the point that nepotism and personal bias is reduced to a minimal influence. Society can equalise to a degree and it does so. The problem is that those on the bottom end of the scale always think the system is unfair because they are not at the top. As you have stated, evolution is aimless and random but it's effect on human behaviour is not.
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Hrolf The Ganger 22 Jun 17 11.05am | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I think previous generations problems were different, my dad lost two sisters to diseases that are now 'trivial complaints'. My grand parents were involved in a massive f**k off war. My parents were limited educationally. But no of those generations were 'financially oppressed' to conform to a very narrow concept of 'success', work provided for them - and I believe that is a central necessity for a health society, that work should provide a reasonable life, with access to pleasures. Not just existing. Agreed. In the 21st century our society should be far more Epicurean and less Dickensian. That is not to say it is not better than before but that it should be better still.
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Hrolf The Ganger 22 Jun 17 11.19am | |
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Originally posted by npn
I've been pondering this one. My parents, and most of my extended family of that generation, never owned a house, and I don't think we were unusual in that. A large number of my peer group are also not home owners. It seems that home ownership has only been a 'thing' for the working class for one, or maybe two generations. So are we now just reverting to the normal state of affairs on home ownership, in that it's not necessarily the normal course of events, and the majority won't be able to afford it? Obviously that then becomes a state issue to ensure there's enough social housing available to keep rents reasonable and preferably own enough themselves to keep any private landlords in check (it's a lot harder to inflate rent if there are options with the council at more reasonable rates) The obsession to own a house seemed to come along with Thatcher. Renting was the norm for many in previous decades but during the 60's and 70's people generally became better off and buying a house became a realistic aspiration for the average. With immigration, low housing stock and multi home ownership by previous generations, it is a perfect storm.
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Kermit8 Hevon 22 Jun 17 11.28am | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
I'm 53 and I don't accept that my generation or the two previous ones had it 'easy'.We had it different. Housing is an issue now and no one can deny that but it is just today's problem, Yesterdays had plenty of their own. What has changed are the rites of passage and achievable aspirations for those who don't come from money. Society was more at ease with itself back then and you are right it wasn't easy but the fact remains if anyone wanted to leave school at 17 or 18 in London and wanted to work hard they could have owned their own place by age 22 without any help from the olds or rented without the cost taking up a huge chunk of wages. That in turn gave independence. From what I have been reading it is not uncommon for kids to still be living with their parents beyond 25 and even into their thirties now which is just unhealthy.
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