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Jeremy Corbyn
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 DanH  SW2 14 Aug 15 9.53am |
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Straw poll: If it meant Blair getting tried for war crimes at the Hague would you vote for Corbyn for PM?
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| dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 14 Aug 15 10.00am |
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Quote DanH at 14 Aug 2015 9.53am
Straw poll: If it meant Blair getting tried for war crimes at the Hague would you vote for Corbyn for PM?
Credit where credit is due, I did pause for thought.
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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Johnny Eagles  berlin 14 Aug 15 10.01am |
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Owen Jones was going on about the 'surge' in membership and how, if Corbyn becomes leader, 'the Left' could again become a dynamic and influential movement. It would be like 1945 all over again. Cloud bleeding cuckoo land, mate. It is quite funny how lefties are deluding themselves that just because Corbyn might win a leadership contest that suddenly the whole world has become a lot more left wing. It HASN'T. You can fill up my Facebook feed with your guff all day long (indeed you are doing so), it won't change a thing. Elect whoever you want, Labour isn't getting near power for a minimum of ten years. The leftier your leader, the further away power gets.
...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread... |
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| Johnny Eagles berlin 14 Aug 15 10.02am |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 14 Aug 2015 3.26am
Quote npn at 13 Aug 2015 5.29pm
Largely agree, though the last para gives me problems with efficiency. Make electricity/gas free to use, and you'll have thousands of households with the central heating on and the windows open. Sadly, people are largely selfish f*ckers! Nothing prompts you more to remember to switch the lights off than the thought you actually have to pay for it. So public ownership - yes
Racist.
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| Johnny Eagles berlin 14 Aug 15 10.03am |
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Quote matt_himself at 13 Aug 2015 4.19pm
Quote serial thriller at 13 Aug 2015 10.05am
Quote matt_himself at 13 Aug 2015 6.45am
Quote serial thriller at 13 Aug 2015 1.26am
Quote matt_himself at 12 Aug 2015 6.54am
Ideologically driven agenda, with no basis in the reality of economics. I was told once that if socialists were made to read economics, there would be no socialists. Edited by matt_himself (12 Aug 2015 7.09am)
There are still loads of great socialist economists out there, from David Graeber to Paul Mason, and the idea that they haven't read economics is really just insulting. If these 'household names' of socialist economic thought were so 'great', how can none of them have come up with a working, practical alternative to capitalism? Before you say they have, they clearly haven't as capitalism rules the planet. Furthermore, 'Socialist economics' is an oxymoron performed by a bunch of elitist professors having a circle jerk about something that will never happen.
There is a dogmatism to your posts which I find worrying. You assume that those with a different ideological standpoint to you are merely ignorant, hence claiming that no economists can be socialist even when this flies in the face of reality. Socialism has happened, is happening and will probably happen again, yet your last paragraph highlights that you aren't willing to engage on an intellectual level with its ideas, instead wishing to smear the views held be millions, purely because they are at odds with your own. You love brandishing us on the left as totalitarian, fascist and blinkered, but I wonder what terminology you would use of your own views on tho thread if you were to take a step back?
Agree with this. If you define 'capitalism' as people interacting within a market economy, it is on the march. And a jolly good thing too.
...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread... |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Aug 15 10.05am |
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Quote npn at 13 Aug 2015 5.29pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 13 Aug 2015 4.54pm
Quote We are goin up! at 13 Aug 2015 4.15pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 13 Aug 2015 4.08pm
At least 15% of the Parliamentary and European Party (ie the MPs elected for Labour) have to back you to get on the ballet, which means a minimum of 35 MPs. Bloke seems popular with a large and significant percentage of those capable of voting for a new Labor leader. He's not really all that Left Wing either, just to the left of John Smith and Tony Blair (ie not a center right New Labour Old Tory).
See he's making a liberal point, a proper leftie would be talking about nationalizing without compensation two industries that have failed to deliver competition or price savings for the end user. The advantage of state ownership of power companies is that you can control prices (if necessary by subsidization), so that power and transport for citizens is recouped through the taxation they pay, rather than privately (ie like the NHS, free at point of use). In terms of transport it encourages less use of vehicles, reduces traffic congestion etc. It'd reduce the cost of taxation as well in terms of recouped 'milage' (because individual use of vehicles is massively reduced) Personally I agree with a system where in the state actually owns operates and is accountable for the apparatus of state such as the utilities (essential functions for daily existence), and makes them available to all. Things like water, electricity, gas, public transport, schools etc should be 'free at point of use'. They're essential to daily functionality of citizens and their lives.
Nothing prompts you more to remember to switch the lights off than the thought you actually have to pay for it. So public ownership - yes Maybe, but that's an assumption. Maybe the solution would be to allow up to a reasonable amount of energy provision FOC, with a surplus being purchased on top. I'm not sure people will put the central heating on just because they can to the degree that it would be a problem. Of course you could offer a 'reward' to those properties that fall below a certain level of usage.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Johnny Eagles berlin 14 Aug 15 10.06am |
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Quote nickgusset at 13 Aug 2015 4.36pm
Fact is, there are people who want to listen to Corbyn because he represents a shift away from what we've had for the past 30 or so years. Fact is there are examples of mass movements of people who want to turn away from the neo-liberal agenda. The sell-out crowds and 'surge' in membership are interesting phenomena. And shouldn't be dismissed. But I suspect it's a lot like those protests against student debt. Maybe 10% of the people actually thought deeply about it, the other 90% went along for the ride cos they thought it would be a laugh. I'll be surprised if 'Corbynmania' exists beyond the summer. It's a flash in the pan, I reckon.
...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread... |
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| dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 14 Aug 15 10.08am |
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Sorry but this was to funny not to.
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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Attachment: | jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Aug 15 10.13am |
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Quote Johnny Eagles at 14 Aug 2015 10.03am
Quote matt_himself at 13 Aug 2015 4.19pm
Quote serial thriller at 13 Aug 2015 10.05am
Quote matt_himself at 13 Aug 2015 6.45am
Quote serial thriller at 13 Aug 2015 1.26am
Quote matt_himself at 12 Aug 2015 6.54am
Ideologically driven agenda, with no basis in the reality of economics. I was told once that if socialists were made to read economics, there would be no socialists. Edited by matt_himself (12 Aug 2015 7.09am)
There are still loads of great socialist economists out there, from David Graeber to Paul Mason, and the idea that they haven't read economics is really just insulting. If these 'household names' of socialist economic thought were so 'great', how can none of them have come up with a working, practical alternative to capitalism? Before you say they have, they clearly haven't as capitalism rules the planet. Furthermore, 'Socialist economics' is an oxymoron performed by a bunch of elitist professors having a circle jerk about something that will never happen.
There is a dogmatism to your posts which I find worrying. You assume that those with a different ideological standpoint to you are merely ignorant, hence claiming that no economists can be socialist even when this flies in the face of reality. Socialism has happened, is happening and will probably happen again, yet your last paragraph highlights that you aren't willing to engage on an intellectual level with its ideas, instead wishing to smear the views held be millions, purely because they are at odds with your own. You love brandishing us on the left as totalitarian, fascist and blinkered, but I wonder what terminology you would use of your own views on tho thread if you were to take a step back?
Agree with this. If you define 'capitalism' as people interacting within a market economy, it is on the march. And a jolly good thing too. If you include people acting within a market economy then you could include most of the socialist countries. I'm not sure its true on a global scale either that people in sweatshops etc are empowered by stitching trainers or Disney toys, esp when they are children who instead of being schooled are producing goods. Nor those empowered by an inability to afford HIV medication, or those dying of preventable disease, unclean drinking water or suffering from malnutirion. When you step outside the first world, capitalism isn't empowering people so much as enslaving them. The generation of wealth for its own sake, is a problem. Captialism needs regulation and control so that it serves the interests of everyone involved, otherwise it creates unrest, dissatisfaction, insurrection and tyranny.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Aug 15 10.20am |
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Quote Johnny Eagles at 14 Aug 2015 10.06am
Quote nickgusset at 13 Aug 2015 4.36pm
Fact is, there are people who want to listen to Corbyn because he represents a shift away from what we've had for the past 30 or so years. Fact is there are examples of mass movements of people who want to turn away from the neo-liberal agenda. The sell-out crowds and 'surge' in membership are interesting phenomena. And shouldn't be dismissed. But I suspect it's a lot like those protests against student debt. Maybe 10% of the people actually thought deeply about it, the other 90% went along for the ride cos they thought it would be a laugh. I'll be surprised if 'Corbynmania' exists beyond the summer. It's a flash in the pan, I reckon. I suspect Corbyn will be popular right up to elections, and then when they see that what they want actually comes with a tax rise, a large number will decide that they don't want 'social justice and fairness' if they have to pay for it. The classic problem of old Labour. The policy and ideals often led to a lot of support and popularity, right up until the election manifesto, when it was clear that in order to have public services someone actually has to pay and be paid. I think generally a truism, that people are generally orientated towards a lot of socialist ideals, but don't actually want to have to pay for them. We all want great schools, amazing hospitals, great care services etc. But we don't want to actually pay for it.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| matt_himself Matataland 14 Aug 15 10.21am |
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Quote Johnny Eagles at 14 Aug 2015 10.01am
Owen Jones was going on about the 'surge' in membership and how, if Corbyn becomes leader, 'the Left' could again become a dynamic and influential movement. It would be like 1945 all over again. Cloud bleeding cuckoo land, mate. It is quite funny how lefties are deluding themselves that just because Corbyn might win a leadership contest that suddenly the whole world has become a lot more left wing. It HASN'T. You can fill up my Facebook feed with your guff all day long (indeed you are doing so), it won't change a thing. Elect whoever you want, Labour isn't getting near power for a minimum of ten years. The leftier your leader, the further away power gets. The attached link is interesting: I cannot help but think that the 'Corbyn surge' is a combination of wishful thinking and a trend, akin to wearing ripped jeans or being a so-called Hipster. It will die out, like wearing Grolsch bottle tops in your clunkers or happy hardcore did.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Aug 15 10.23am |
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Quote Johnny Eagles at 14 Aug 2015 10.01am
Owen Jones was going on about the 'surge' in membership and how, if Corbyn becomes leader, 'the Left' could again become a dynamic and influential movement. It would be like 1945 all over again. Cloud bleeding cuckoo land, mate. It is quite funny how lefties are deluding themselves that just because Corbyn might win a leadership contest that suddenly the whole world has become a lot more left wing. It HASN'T. You can fill up my Facebook feed with your guff all day long (indeed you are doing so), it won't change a thing. Elect whoever you want, Labour isn't getting near power for a minimum of ten years. The leftier your leader, the further away power gets. Maybe. I guess that's the point of democracy, is that we'll have to see. Personally I'm inclined to think the world is no longer generally interested in Left and right wing politics, but identity politics and consumerist politics (and all three major parties in the UK have failed to realize this, resulting in a rise of support for the Green and UKIP, and maybe previously the lib dems).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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