An immigrant speaks..

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TheJudge 26 Apr 15 10.15pm
Quote nickgusset at 26 Apr 2015 9.47pm Quote nickgusset at 26 Apr 2015 9.25pm Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 9.17pm Quote nickgusset at 26 Apr 2015 9.07pm Sure I've seen research somewhere that shows children don't differentiate racially until they are 3 or 4 years old. I'm sure there are elements of nature and nurture to everything, but it's backward, sad and defeatist when people apparently think it's better to keep races apart. There is so much variation in race to begin with, to hold such a view unnecessarily limits a person to a very small world. These are not ideas worthy of being passed on. All we need is a great big melting pot. I posted this in jest... Then I happened to read this... [Link] Ridiculous! What is the source ? For all I know this could be a bit of right wing propaganda. Equally, everything I have witnessed over my lifetime suggests there could be some substance to it. Scientists have come up with some crazy schemes over the years and they have sometimes been sponsored by governments. Sorry, Just read the source at the bottom. Golden Dawn. Well the right wing groups love all this soret of stuff. There could be an element of truth in it. Certainly, after years of telling us that we all need to have less children, they now tell us we need immigration to fill the gap in working age population. That has always grated with me. Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 10.21pm)
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TheJudge

26 Apr 15 10.15pm

Quote nickgusset at 26 Apr 2015 9.47pm

Quote nickgusset at 26 Apr 2015 9.25pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 9.17pm

Quote nickgusset at 26 Apr 2015 9.07pm

Sure I've seen research somewhere that shows children don't differentiate racially until they are 3 or 4 years old.

I'm sure there are elements of nature and nurture to everything, but it's backward, sad and defeatist when people apparently think it's better to keep races apart. There is so much variation in race to begin with, to hold such a view unnecessarily limits a person to a very small world. These are not ideas worthy of being passed on.

All we need is a great big melting pot.

I posted this in jest... Then I happened to read this...

[Link]

Ridiculous!

What is the source ?

For all I know this could be a bit of right wing propaganda. Equally, everything I have witnessed over my lifetime suggests there could be some substance to it.
Scientists have come up with some crazy schemes over the years and they have sometimes been sponsored by governments.

Sorry, Just read the source at the bottom. Golden Dawn.
Well the right wing groups love all this soret of stuff.
There could be an element of truth in it. Certainly, after years of telling us that we all need to have less children, they now tell us we need immigration to fill the gap in working age population. That has always grated with me.

Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 10.21pm)

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Seth On a pale blue dot 27 Apr 15 1.05am
It's been proved that race doesn't even exist, genetically speaking: Today the vast majority of those involved in research on human variation would agree that biological races do not exist among humans. Among those who study the subject, who use and accept modern scientific techniques and logic, this scientific fact is as valid and true as the fact that the earth is round and revolves around the sun. [Link] We now know that the way we talk about race has no scientific validity. There is no genetic basis that corresponds with any particular group of people, no essentialist DNA for black people or white people or anyone. This is not a hippy ideal, it’s a fact. There are genetic characteristics that associate with certain populations, but none of these is exclusive, nor correspond uniquely with any one group that might fit a racial epithet. Regional adaptations are real, but these tend to express difference within so-called races, not between them. [Link] "You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down" FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16
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Seth

On a pale blue dot 27 Apr 15 1.05am

It's been proved that race doesn't even exist, genetically speaking:

Today the vast majority of those involved in research on human variation would agree that biological races do not exist among humans. Among those who study the subject, who use and accept modern scientific techniques and logic, this scientific fact is as valid and true as the fact that the earth is round and revolves around the sun.

[Link]

We now know that the way we talk about race has no scientific validity. There is no genetic basis that corresponds with any particular group of people, no essentialist DNA for black people or white people or anyone. This is not a hippy ideal, it’s a fact. There are genetic characteristics that associate with certain populations, but none of these is exclusive, nor correspond uniquely with any one group that might fit a racial epithet. Regional adaptations are real, but these tend to express difference within so-called races, not between them.

[Link]

"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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imbored UK 27 Apr 15 1.46am
Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 10.04pm Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 9.03pm Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 8.40pm Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 7.03pm Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 6.19pm Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 4.48pm Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 1.19am Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 10.55am Quote TheJudge at 25 Apr 2015 9.54am Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 12.54am ------------------------------------------------------- An amusing post but flawed. We are not tlaking about some sort of enforced apartheid here, we are talking about natural bonds and preferences. Religion, culture and race are related to some extent as you well know but it is not a simple formula as you rightly suggest. There are quite clearly sociological and anthropological reasons why people like to live together or apart including long standing religious and historical ones. I'm not sure why you deny this or why you see it as some sort of ideological heresy. It is what it is Clealy you believe that my interpretation of the truth is tainted in some way but I would suggest to you that you entertain the idea that maybe your world view is equally if not more prejudiced. There is no racial or religious prejudice in my observations. I am just saying things as I see them. My observations are supported by both anecdotal and statistical evidence. Yours I suspect are driven by uncontrolled ideological fantasy. .................................................... Blimey,I must bow down to the king of objective rationality?! Of course all our views are subjective and influenced by our ideological views,including your's.Indeed,very much including your's. You suggest that because I don't agree people generally within in the UK today (which was the point of your posts) prefer to live apart on the basis of ethnicity,I am therefore a uncontrolled ideological fantasist.That's just plain silly... As for your subjective view being backed up as you state by "statistical evidence",well on the basis of the only link you have posted so far... Btw,the philosophical underpinning of Apartheid's ideologues was that the races supposedly preferred to live apart and "develop separately"....that was utilised by the group in question upon gaining power in 1948 to try and force increased such separation...The Afrikaans word "apartheid" literally translates into English as "separateness". Edited by legaleagle (25 Apr 2015 11.18am) And how is it going for them down in sunny South Africa since Apartheid was removed ? Have they all started living together in wonderful harmony ? Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.19am) Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.20am) It's obviously not a better idea to try to keep races apart. Is this even something people are still questioning? Problems aren't solved overnight, but it does us no good to sustain dynamics that we don't need to. Really ? I don't think we sustain it. Just the opposite. We resist natural leanings in the interests of commerce. Generally, people migrate to make money not to live with other races or nationalities. Sometimes they are escaping oppression from other religious groups or races. Hardly an obvious indication that a rainbow nation has ever or will ever work. Remove one lot of reasons for division and we will invent some new ones. Assimilate one group of people and another will be lining up right behind them. People have tribal aspects to them of course but this manifests itself in various ways, largely cultural. What you grow up around and educate yourself about largely indicates what is 'foreign' to you. Whether that's race, disability, nationality. That's why your seeming approval of apartheid is wrong. It helps to sustain and give the stamp of approval to a myth. Race is important not because it is, but people people think it is. Clearly you do, I don't. It is not a question of approval. Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour. Race is just one of many differences that exist, or have been manufactured, that humans use as an excuse to divide themselves. History has shown that we divide ourselves out of choice, most likely driven by a natural instinct. The human brain has given us intelligence along with boundless stupidity and arrogance. Some of us think that we can interpret nature anyway we like to suit our own particular political agenda but the fact remains that the hidden forces of biology dictate our actions and thinking far more than most acknowledge or recognise. The evidence suggests that a desire to live in advantageous groups is part of that. Advantageous can mean adhering to racial, political or religious associations. Take it or leave it, I don't care. This was gone from rough waters, or overboard as far as I'm concerned. As stated, there are very many ways that people do and don't differentiate. Sometimes it may be race, other times in some societies culturally race may not be so much of an issue, something else will be. I have plenty of friends of various races. You seem to keep implying that in doing so I am going against my nature. Nature has not 'divided' black and white people in any meaningful way, hence the many millions of mixed race children. To create an analogy comparing different races to "cats and dogs" suggests the distance you evidently view others, not the reality of the situation. Edited by imbored (26 Apr 2015 9.05pm) It's just not that simple. You've made your position quite clear. You inferred that getting rid of Apartheid, was resisting our natural leanings, so my comment stands. But of course you also said.. Quote Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour. wildly overestimating how different race makes a person by using different species as examples, then directly suggesting that this difference 'must be reflected in human behaviour'. Clearly you think a person's race goes much further than skin deep. Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 3.23am)
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imbored

UK 27 Apr 15 1.46am

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 10.04pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 9.03pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 8.40pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 7.03pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 6.19pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 4.48pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 1.19am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 10.55am

Quote TheJudge at 25 Apr 2015 9.54am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 12.54am

-------------------------------------------------------

An amusing post but flawed.

We are not tlaking about some sort of enforced apartheid here, we are talking about natural bonds and preferences.
Religion, culture and race are related to some extent as you well know but it is not a simple formula as you rightly suggest. There are quite clearly sociological and anthropological reasons why people like to live together or apart including long standing religious and historical ones. I'm not sure why you deny this or why you see it as some sort of ideological heresy.
It is what it is
Clealy you believe that my interpretation of the truth is tainted in some way but I would suggest to you that you entertain the idea that maybe your world view is equally if not more prejudiced.
There is no racial or religious prejudice in my observations. I am just saying things as I see them. My observations are supported by both anecdotal and statistical evidence. Yours I suspect are driven by uncontrolled ideological fantasy.

....................................................

Blimey,I must bow down to the king of objective rationality?!

Of course all our views are subjective and influenced by our ideological views,including your's.Indeed,very much including your's.

You suggest that because I don't agree people generally within in the UK today (which was the point of your posts) prefer to live apart on the basis of ethnicity,I am therefore a uncontrolled ideological fantasist.That's just plain silly...

As for your subjective view being backed up as you state by "statistical evidence",well on the basis of the only link you have posted so far...

Btw,the philosophical underpinning of Apartheid's ideologues was that the races supposedly preferred to live apart and "develop separately"....that was utilised by the group in question upon gaining power in 1948 to try and force increased such separation...The Afrikaans word "apartheid" literally translates into English as "separateness".

Edited by legaleagle (25 Apr 2015 11.18am)

And how is it going for them down in sunny South Africa since Apartheid was removed ? Have they all started living together in wonderful harmony ?

Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.19am)

Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.20am)

It's obviously not a better idea to try to keep races apart. Is this even something people are still questioning? Problems aren't solved overnight, but it does us no good to sustain dynamics that we don't need to.

Really ? I don't think we sustain it. Just the opposite. We resist natural leanings in the interests of commerce. Generally, people migrate to make money not to live with other races or nationalities. Sometimes they are escaping oppression from other religious groups or races. Hardly an obvious indication that a rainbow nation has ever or will ever work.
Remove one lot of reasons for division and we will invent some new ones. Assimilate one group of people and another will be lining up right behind them.

People have tribal aspects to them of course but this manifests itself in various ways, largely cultural. What you grow up around and educate yourself about largely indicates what is 'foreign' to you. Whether that's race, disability, nationality. That's why your seeming approval of apartheid is wrong. It helps to sustain and give the stamp of approval to a myth. Race is important not because it is, but people people think it is. Clearly you do, I don't.

It is not a question of approval. Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour.
Race is just one of many differences that exist, or have been manufactured, that humans use as an excuse to divide themselves. History has shown that we divide ourselves out of choice, most likely driven by a natural instinct. The human brain has given us intelligence along with boundless stupidity and arrogance. Some of us think that we can interpret nature anyway we like to suit our own particular political agenda but the fact remains that the hidden forces of biology dictate our actions and thinking far more than most acknowledge or recognise. The evidence suggests that a desire to live in advantageous groups is part of that. Advantageous can mean adhering to racial, political or religious associations. Take it or leave it, I don't care.

This was gone from rough waters, or overboard as far as I'm concerned. As stated, there are very many ways that people do and don't differentiate. Sometimes it may be race, other times in some societies culturally race may not be so much of an issue, something else will be. I have plenty of friends of various races. You seem to keep implying that in doing so I am going against my nature. Nature has not 'divided' black and white people in any meaningful way, hence the many millions of mixed race children. To create an analogy comparing different races to "cats and dogs" suggests the distance you evidently view others, not the reality of the situation.

Edited by imbored (26 Apr 2015 9.05pm)

It's just not that simple.

You've made your position quite clear. You inferred that getting rid of Apartheid, was resisting our natural leanings, so my comment stands.

But of course you also said..

Quote Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour.

wildly overestimating how different race makes a person by using different species as examples, then directly suggesting that this difference 'must be reflected in human behaviour'. Clearly you think a person's race goes much further than skin deep.

Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 3.23am)

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imbored UK 27 Apr 15 1.51am
Quote Seth at 27 Apr 2015 1.05am It's been proved that race doesn't even exist, genetically speaking: Today the vast majority of those involved in research on human variation would agree that biological races do not exist among humans. Among those who study the subject, who use and accept modern scientific techniques and logic, this scientific fact is as valid and true as the fact that the earth is round and revolves around the sun. [Link] We now know that the way we talk about race has no scientific validity. There is no genetic basis that corresponds with any particular group of people, no essentialist DNA for black people or white people or anyone. This is not a hippy ideal, it’s a fact. There are genetic characteristics that associate with certain populations, but none of these is exclusive, nor correspond uniquely with any one group that might fit a racial epithet. Regional adaptations are real, but these tend to express difference within so-called races, not between them. [Link] There is definitely a cultural aspect to what race is, which is how if you ask a room full of people, Obama is magically both black and mixed race at the same time. Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 2.19am)
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imbored

UK 27 Apr 15 1.51am

Quote Seth at 27 Apr 2015 1.05am

It's been proved that race doesn't even exist, genetically speaking:

[Link]

[Link]

There is definitely a cultural aspect to what race is, which is how if you ask a room full of people, Obama is magically both black and mixed race at the same time.

Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 2.19am)

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Kermit8 Hevon 27 Apr 15 9.21am
Around the globe there are some brilliant mathematicians, scientists, authors, journalists etc. All different hues. If that isn't evidence enough that race differentials are only about skin and bone structure then whoever you are......you are an idiot. Culture, of course, is another debate. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 27 Apr 15 9.21am

Around the globe there are some brilliant mathematicians, scientists, authors, journalists etc. All different hues. If that isn't evidence enough that race differentials are only about skin and bone structure then whoever you are......you are an idiot.

Culture, of course, is another debate.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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TheJudge 27 Apr 15 11.21am
Quote imbored at 27 Apr 2015 1.46am Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 10.04pm Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 9.03pm Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 8.40pm Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 7.03pm Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 6.19pm Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 4.48pm Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 1.19am Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 10.55am Quote TheJudge at 25 Apr 2015 9.54am Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 12.54am ------------------------------------------------------- An amusing post but flawed. We are not tlaking about some sort of enforced apartheid here, we are talking about natural bonds and preferences. Religion, culture and race are related to some extent as you well know but it is not a simple formula as you rightly suggest. There are quite clearly sociological and anthropological reasons why people like to live together or apart including long standing religious and historical ones. I'm not sure why you deny this or why you see it as some sort of ideological heresy. It is what it is Clealy you believe that my interpretation of the truth is tainted in some way but I would suggest to you that you entertain the idea that maybe your world view is equally if not more prejudiced. There is no racial or religious prejudice in my observations. I am just saying things as I see them. My observations are supported by both anecdotal and statistical evidence. Yours I suspect are driven by uncontrolled ideological fantasy. .................................................... Blimey,I must bow down to the king of objective rationality?! Of course all our views are subjective and influenced by our ideological views,including your's.Indeed,very much including your's. You suggest that because I don't agree people generally within in the UK today (which was the point of your posts) prefer to live apart on the basis of ethnicity,I am therefore a uncontrolled ideological fantasist.That's just plain silly... As for your subjective view being backed up as you state by "statistical evidence",well on the basis of the only link you have posted so far... Btw,the philosophical underpinning of Apartheid's ideologues was that the races supposedly preferred to live apart and "develop separately"....that was utilised by the group in question upon gaining power in 1948 to try and force increased such separation...The Afrikaans word "apartheid" literally translates into English as "separateness". Edited by legaleagle (25 Apr 2015 11.18am) And how is it going for them down in sunny South Africa since Apartheid was removed ? Have they all started living together in wonderful harmony ? Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.19am) Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.20am) It's obviously not a better idea to try to keep races apart. Is this even something people are still questioning? Problems aren't solved overnight, but it does us no good to sustain dynamics that we don't need to. Really ? I don't think we sustain it. Just the opposite. We resist natural leanings in the interests of commerce. Generally, people migrate to make money not to live with other races or nationalities. Sometimes they are escaping oppression from other religious groups or races. Hardly an obvious indication that a rainbow nation has ever or will ever work. Remove one lot of reasons for division and we will invent some new ones. Assimilate one group of people and another will be lining up right behind them. People have tribal aspects to them of course but this manifests itself in various ways, largely cultural. What you grow up around and educate yourself about largely indicates what is 'foreign' to you. Whether that's race, disability, nationality. That's why your seeming approval of apartheid is wrong. It helps to sustain and give the stamp of approval to a myth. Race is important not because it is, but people people think it is. Clearly you do, I don't. It is not a question of approval. Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour. Race is just one of many differences that exist, or have been manufactured, that humans use as an excuse to divide themselves. History has shown that we divide ourselves out of choice, most likely driven by a natural instinct. The human brain has given us intelligence along with boundless stupidity and arrogance. Some of us think that we can interpret nature anyway we like to suit our own particular political agenda but the fact remains that the hidden forces of biology dictate our actions and thinking far more than most acknowledge or recognise. The evidence suggests that a desire to live in advantageous groups is part of that. Advantageous can mean adhering to racial, political or religious associations. Take it or leave it, I don't care. This was gone from rough waters, or overboard as far as I'm concerned. As stated, there are very many ways that people do and don't differentiate. Sometimes it may be race, other times in some societies culturally race may not be so much of an issue, something else will be. I have plenty of friends of various races. You seem to keep implying that in doing so I am going against my nature. Nature has not 'divided' black and white people in any meaningful way, hence the many millions of mixed race children. To create an analogy comparing different races to "cats and dogs" suggests the distance you evidently view others, not the reality of the situation. Edited by imbored (26 Apr 2015 9.05pm) It's just not that simple. You've made your position quite clear. You inferred that getting rid of Apartheid, was resisting our natural leanings, so my comment stands. But of course you also said.. Quote Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour. wildly overestimating how different race makes a person by using different species as examples, then directly suggesting that this difference 'must be reflected in human behaviour'. Clearly you think a person's race goes much further than skin deep. Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 3.23am) The only thing that is clear is that you interpret everything I say in a way that suits your own agenda. There does not need to be any significant physiological difference between so called races to make them behave differently toward each other. I do not know if culture related to different races or regions are nature or nurture. I would suspect the latter, but it makes no difference, it exists. The fact that people have created tribalism on many levels should tell you that it is the human condition to separate themselves from others for all kinds of perceived advantages. If your personal politics or circumstances does not allow you to recognise that the I can't help you with your denial. Edited by TheJudge (27 Apr 2015 11.23am)
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TheJudge

27 Apr 15 11.21am

Quote imbored at 27 Apr 2015 1.46am

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 10.04pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 9.03pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 8.40pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 7.03pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 6.19pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 4.48pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 1.19am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 10.55am

Quote TheJudge at 25 Apr 2015 9.54am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 12.54am

-------------------------------------------------------

An amusing post but flawed.

....................................................

Blimey,I must bow down to the king of objective rationality?!

Of course all our views are subjective and influenced by our ideological views,including your's.Indeed,very much including your's.

As for your subjective view being backed up as you state by "statistical evidence",well on the basis of the only link you have posted so far...

Edited by legaleagle (25 Apr 2015 11.18am)

And how is it going for them down in sunny South Africa since Apartheid was removed ? Have they all started living together in wonderful harmony ?

Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.19am)

Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.20am)

Edited by imbored (26 Apr 2015 9.05pm)

It's just not that simple.

You've made your position quite clear. You inferred that getting rid of Apartheid, was resisting our natural leanings, so my comment stands.

But of course you also said..

Quote Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour.

Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 3.23am)

The only thing that is clear is that you interpret everything I say in a way that suits your own agenda.
There does not need to be any significant physiological difference between so called races to make them behave differently toward each other. I do not know if culture related to different races or regions are nature or nurture. I would suspect the latter, but it makes no difference, it exists. The fact that people have created tribalism on many levels should tell you that it is the human condition to separate themselves from others for all kinds of perceived advantages.
If your personal politics or circumstances does not allow you to recognise that the I can't help you with your denial.

Edited by TheJudge (27 Apr 2015 11.23am)

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TheJudge 27 Apr 15 11.29am
Quote Kermit8 at 27 Apr 2015 9.21am Around the globe there are some brilliant mathematicians, scientists, authors, journalists etc. All different hues. If that isn't evidence enough that race differentials are only about skin and bone structure then whoever you are......you are an idiot. Culture, of course, is another debate. I really don't think that any physiological differences are significant. Even if they were, there is some advantage to variation. No, that's not what we are talking about here. However culture, religion, education, attitude have big roles to play in the difference between people.
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TheJudge

27 Apr 15 11.29am

Quote Kermit8 at 27 Apr 2015 9.21am

Culture, of course, is another debate.

I really don't think that any physiological differences are significant. Even if they were, there is some advantage to variation.
No, that's not what we are talking about here. However culture, religion, education, attitude have big roles to play in the difference between people.

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imbored UK 27 Apr 15 11.48am
Quote TheJudge at 27 Apr 2015 11.21am Quote imbored at 27 Apr 2015 1.46am Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 10.04pm Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 9.03pm Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 8.40pm Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 7.03pm Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 6.19pm Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 4.48pm Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 1.19am Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 10.55am Quote TheJudge at 25 Apr 2015 9.54am Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 12.54am ------------------------------------------------------- An amusing post but flawed. We are not tlaking about some sort of enforced apartheid here, we are talking about natural bonds and preferences. Religion, culture and race are related to some extent as you well know but it is not a simple formula as you rightly suggest. There are quite clearly sociological and anthropological reasons why people like to live together or apart including long standing religious and historical ones. I'm not sure why you deny this or why you see it as some sort of ideological heresy. It is what it is Clealy you believe that my interpretation of the truth is tainted in some way but I would suggest to you that you entertain the idea that maybe your world view is equally if not more prejudiced. There is no racial or religious prejudice in my observations. I am just saying things as I see them. My observations are supported by both anecdotal and statistical evidence. Yours I suspect are driven by uncontrolled ideological fantasy. .................................................... Blimey,I must bow down to the king of objective rationality?! Of course all our views are subjective and influenced by our ideological views,including your's.Indeed,very much including your's. You suggest that because I don't agree people generally within in the UK today (which was the point of your posts) prefer to live apart on the basis of ethnicity,I am therefore a uncontrolled ideological fantasist.That's just plain silly... As for your subjective view being backed up as you state by "statistical evidence",well on the basis of the only link you have posted so far... Btw,the philosophical underpinning of Apartheid's ideologues was that the races supposedly preferred to live apart and "develop separately"....that was utilised by the group in question upon gaining power in 1948 to try and force increased such separation...The Afrikaans word "apartheid" literally translates into English as "separateness". Edited by legaleagle (25 Apr 2015 11.18am) And how is it going for them down in sunny South Africa since Apartheid was removed ? Have they all started living together in wonderful harmony ? Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.19am) Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.20am) It's obviously not a better idea to try to keep races apart. Is this even something people are still questioning? Problems aren't solved overnight, but it does us no good to sustain dynamics that we don't need to. Really ? I don't think we sustain it. Just the opposite. We resist natural leanings in the interests of commerce. Generally, people migrate to make money not to live with other races or nationalities. Sometimes they are escaping oppression from other religious groups or races. Hardly an obvious indication that a rainbow nation has ever or will ever work. Remove one lot of reasons for division and we will invent some new ones. Assimilate one group of people and another will be lining up right behind them. People have tribal aspects to them of course but this manifests itself in various ways, largely cultural. What you grow up around and educate yourself about largely indicates what is 'foreign' to you. Whether that's race, disability, nationality. That's why your seeming approval of apartheid is wrong. It helps to sustain and give the stamp of approval to a myth. Race is important not because it is, but people people think it is. Clearly you do, I don't. It is not a question of approval. Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour. Race is just one of many differences that exist, or have been manufactured, that humans use as an excuse to divide themselves. History has shown that we divide ourselves out of choice, most likely driven by a natural instinct. The human brain has given us intelligence along with boundless stupidity and arrogance. Some of us think that we can interpret nature anyway we like to suit our own particular political agenda but the fact remains that the hidden forces of biology dictate our actions and thinking far more than most acknowledge or recognise. The evidence suggests that a desire to live in advantageous groups is part of that. Advantageous can mean adhering to racial, political or religious associations. Take it or leave it, I don't care. This was gone from rough waters, or overboard as far as I'm concerned. As stated, there are very many ways that people do and don't differentiate. Sometimes it may be race, other times in some societies culturally race may not be so much of an issue, something else will be. I have plenty of friends of various races. You seem to keep implying that in doing so I am going against my nature. Nature has not 'divided' black and white people in any meaningful way, hence the many millions of mixed race children. To create an analogy comparing different races to "cats and dogs" suggests the distance you evidently view others, not the reality of the situation. Edited by imbored (26 Apr 2015 9.05pm) It's just not that simple. You've made your position quite clear. You inferred that getting rid of Apartheid, was resisting our natural leanings, so my comment stands. But of course you also said.. Quote Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour. wildly overestimating how different race makes a person by using different species as examples, then directly suggesting that this difference 'must be reflected in human behaviour'. Clearly you think a person's race goes much further than skin deep. Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 3.23am) The only thing that is clear is that you interpret everything I say in a way that suits your own agenda. There does not need to be any significant physiological difference between so called races to make them behave differently toward each other. I do not know if culture related to different races or regions are nature or nurture. I would suspect the latter, but it makes no difference, it exists. The fact that people have created tribalism on many levels should tell you that it is the human condition to separate themselves from others for all kinds of perceived advantages. If your personal politics or circumstances does not allow you to recognise that the I can't help you with your denial. Edited by TheJudge (27 Apr 2015 11.23am) You don't much like people with arbitrary differences to yourself. Some others feel the same way. Yes, we get it. You inferred that race conveyed behavioural differences by nature, now you're not so sure. If it's nurture then my original comments that apartheid isn't a great idea are correct because people are exposed to closer life experiences. If you're sticking with nature, it's just a racist belief, to believe that races are so different in how they behave they should be kept apart. Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 11.59am)
Alert a moderator to this post

imbored

UK 27 Apr 15 11.48am

Quote TheJudge at 27 Apr 2015 11.21am

Quote imbored at 27 Apr 2015 1.46am

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 10.04pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 9.03pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 8.40pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 7.03pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 6.19pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 4.48pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 1.19am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 10.55am

Quote TheJudge at 25 Apr 2015 9.54am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 12.54am

-------------------------------------------------------

An amusing post but flawed.

....................................................

Blimey,I must bow down to the king of objective rationality?!

Of course all our views are subjective and influenced by our ideological views,including your's.Indeed,very much including your's.

As for your subjective view being backed up as you state by "statistical evidence",well on the basis of the only link you have posted so far...

Edited by legaleagle (25 Apr 2015 11.18am)

And how is it going for them down in sunny South Africa since Apartheid was removed ? Have they all started living together in wonderful harmony ?

Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.19am)

Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.20am)

Edited by imbored (26 Apr 2015 9.05pm)

It's just not that simple.

You've made your position quite clear. You inferred that getting rid of Apartheid, was resisting our natural leanings, so my comment stands.

But of course you also said..

Quote Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour.

Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 3.23am)

Edited by TheJudge (27 Apr 2015 11.23am)

You don't much like people with arbitrary differences to yourself. Some others feel the same way. Yes, we get it.

You inferred that race conveyed behavioural differences by nature, now you're not so sure. If it's nurture then my original comments that apartheid isn't a great idea are correct because people are exposed to closer life experiences. If you're sticking with nature, it's just a racist belief, to believe that races are so different in how they behave they should be kept apart.

Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 11.59am)

Alert a moderator to this post

TheJudge 27 Apr 15 12.39pm
Quote imbored at 27 Apr 2015 11.48am Quote TheJudge at 27 Apr 2015 11.21am Quote imbored at 27 Apr 2015 1.46am Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 10.04pm Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 9.03pm Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 8.40pm Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 7.03pm Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 6.19pm Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 4.48pm Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 1.19am Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 10.55am Quote TheJudge at 25 Apr 2015 9.54am Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 12.54am ------------------------------------------------------- An amusing post but flawed. We are not tlaking about some sort of enforced apartheid here, we are talking about natural bonds and preferences. Religion, culture and race are related to some extent as you well know but it is not a simple formula as you rightly suggest. There are quite clearly sociological and anthropological reasons why people like to live together or apart including long standing religious and historical ones. I'm not sure why you deny this or why you see it as some sort of ideological heresy. It is what it is Clealy you believe that my interpretation of the truth is tainted in some way but I would suggest to you that you entertain the idea that maybe your world view is equally if not more prejudiced. There is no racial or religious prejudice in my observations. I am just saying things as I see them. My observations are supported by both anecdotal and statistical evidence. Yours I suspect are driven by uncontrolled ideological fantasy. .................................................... Blimey,I must bow down to the king of objective rationality?! Of course all our views are subjective and influenced by our ideological views,including your's.Indeed,very much including your's. You suggest that because I don't agree people generally within in the UK today (which was the point of your posts) prefer to live apart on the basis of ethnicity,I am therefore a uncontrolled ideological fantasist.That's just plain silly... As for your subjective view being backed up as you state by "statistical evidence",well on the basis of the only link you have posted so far... Btw,the philosophical underpinning of Apartheid's ideologues was that the races supposedly preferred to live apart and "develop separately"....that was utilised by the group in question upon gaining power in 1948 to try and force increased such separation...The Afrikaans word "apartheid" literally translates into English as "separateness". Edited by legaleagle (25 Apr 2015 11.18am) And how is it going for them down in sunny South Africa since Apartheid was removed ? Have they all started living together in wonderful harmony ? Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.19am) Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.20am) It's obviously not a better idea to try to keep races apart. Is this even something people are still questioning? Problems aren't solved overnight, but it does us no good to sustain dynamics that we don't need to. Really ? I don't think we sustain it. Just the opposite. We resist natural leanings in the interests of commerce. Generally, people migrate to make money not to live with other races or nationalities. Sometimes they are escaping oppression from other religious groups or races. Hardly an obvious indication that a rainbow nation has ever or will ever work. Remove one lot of reasons for division and we will invent some new ones. Assimilate one group of people and another will be lining up right behind them. People have tribal aspects to them of course but this manifests itself in various ways, largely cultural. What you grow up around and educate yourself about largely indicates what is 'foreign' to you. Whether that's race, disability, nationality. That's why your seeming approval of apartheid is wrong. It helps to sustain and give the stamp of approval to a myth. Race is important not because it is, but people people think it is. Clearly you do, I don't. It is not a question of approval. Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour. Race is just one of many differences that exist, or have been manufactured, that humans use as an excuse to divide themselves. History has shown that we divide ourselves out of choice, most likely driven by a natural instinct. The human brain has given us intelligence along with boundless stupidity and arrogance. Some of us think that we can interpret nature anyway we like to suit our own particular political agenda but the fact remains that the hidden forces of biology dictate our actions and thinking far more than most acknowledge or recognise. The evidence suggests that a desire to live in advantageous groups is part of that. Advantageous can mean adhering to racial, political or religious associations. Take it or leave it, I don't care. This was gone from rough waters, or overboard as far as I'm concerned. As stated, there are very many ways that people do and don't differentiate. Sometimes it may be race, other times in some societies culturally race may not be so much of an issue, something else will be. I have plenty of friends of various races. You seem to keep implying that in doing so I am going against my nature. Nature has not 'divided' black and white people in any meaningful way, hence the many millions of mixed race children. To create an analogy comparing different races to "cats and dogs" suggests the distance you evidently view others, not the reality of the situation. Edited by imbored (26 Apr 2015 9.05pm) It's just not that simple. You've made your position quite clear. You inferred that getting rid of Apartheid, was resisting our natural leanings, so my comment stands. But of course you also said.. Quote Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour. wildly overestimating how different race makes a person by using different species as examples, then directly suggesting that this difference 'must be reflected in human behaviour'. Clearly you think a person's race goes much further than skin deep. Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 3.23am) The only thing that is clear is that you interpret everything I say in a way that suits your own agenda. There does not need to be any significant physiological difference between so called races to make them behave differently toward each other. I do not know if culture related to different races or regions are nature or nurture. I would suspect the latter, but it makes no difference, it exists. The fact that people have created tribalism on many levels should tell you that it is the human condition to separate themselves from others for all kinds of perceived advantages. If your personal politics or circumstances does not allow you to recognise that the I can't help you with your denial. Edited by TheJudge (27 Apr 2015 11.23am) You don't much like people with arbitrary differences to yourself. Some others feel the same way. Yes, we get it. You inferred that race conveyed behavioural differences by nature, now you're not so sure. If it's nurture then my original comments that apartheid isn't a great idea are correct because people are exposed to closer life experiences. If you're sticking with nature, it's just a racist belief, to believe that races are so different in how they behave they should be kept apart. Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 11.59am) At last, you manage to get the word "racist" in. Congratulations. I see that a grown up discussion is a little too much to expect. There is little point in me responding further because you only interpret what I say in a way that suits your mindset.
Alert a moderator to this post

TheJudge

27 Apr 15 12.39pm

Quote imbored at 27 Apr 2015 11.48am

Quote TheJudge at 27 Apr 2015 11.21am

Quote imbored at 27 Apr 2015 1.46am

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 10.04pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 9.03pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 8.40pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 7.03pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 6.19pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 4.48pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 1.19am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 10.55am

Quote TheJudge at 25 Apr 2015 9.54am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 12.54am

-------------------------------------------------------

An amusing post but flawed.

....................................................

Blimey,I must bow down to the king of objective rationality?!

Of course all our views are subjective and influenced by our ideological views,including your's.Indeed,very much including your's.

As for your subjective view being backed up as you state by "statistical evidence",well on the basis of the only link you have posted so far...

Edited by legaleagle (25 Apr 2015 11.18am)

And how is it going for them down in sunny South Africa since Apartheid was removed ? Have they all started living together in wonderful harmony ?

Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.19am)

Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.20am)

Edited by imbored (26 Apr 2015 9.05pm)

It's just not that simple.

You've made your position quite clear. You inferred that getting rid of Apartheid, was resisting our natural leanings, so my comment stands.

But of course you also said..

Quote Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour.

Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 3.23am)

Edited by TheJudge (27 Apr 2015 11.23am)

You don't much like people with arbitrary differences to yourself. Some others feel the same way. Yes, we get it.

You inferred that race conveyed behavioural differences by nature, now you're not so sure. If it's nurture then my original comments that apartheid isn't a great idea are correct because people are exposed to closer life experiences. If you're sticking with nature, it's just a racist belief, to believe that races are so different in how they behave they should be kept apart.

Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 11.59am)

At last, you manage to get the word "racist" in. Congratulations.
I see that a grown up discussion is a little too much to expect.
There is little point in me responding further because you only interpret what I say in a way that suits your mindset.

Alert a moderator to this post

imbored UK 27 Apr 15 4.21pm
Quote TheJudge at 27 Apr 2015 12.39pm Quote imbored at 27 Apr 2015 11.48am Quote TheJudge at 27 Apr 2015 11.21am Quote imbored at 27 Apr 2015 1.46am Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 10.04pm Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 9.03pm Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 8.40pm Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 7.03pm Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 6.19pm Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 4.48pm Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 1.19am Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 10.55am Quote TheJudge at 25 Apr 2015 9.54am Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 12.54am ------------------------------------------------------- An amusing post but flawed. We are not tlaking about some sort of enforced apartheid here, we are talking about natural bonds and preferences. Religion, culture and race are related to some extent as you well know but it is not a simple formula as you rightly suggest. There are quite clearly sociological and anthropological reasons why people like to live together or apart including long standing religious and historical ones. I'm not sure why you deny this or why you see it as some sort of ideological heresy. It is what it is Clealy you believe that my interpretation of the truth is tainted in some way but I would suggest to you that you entertain the idea that maybe your world view is equally if not more prejudiced. There is no racial or religious prejudice in my observations. I am just saying things as I see them. My observations are supported by both anecdotal and statistical evidence. Yours I suspect are driven by uncontrolled ideological fantasy. .................................................... Blimey,I must bow down to the king of objective rationality?! Of course all our views are subjective and influenced by our ideological views,including your's.Indeed,very much including your's. You suggest that because I don't agree people generally within in the UK today (which was the point of your posts) prefer to live apart on the basis of ethnicity,I am therefore a uncontrolled ideological fantasist.That's just plain silly... As for your subjective view being backed up as you state by "statistical evidence",well on the basis of the only link you have posted so far... Btw,the philosophical underpinning of Apartheid's ideologues was that the races supposedly preferred to live apart and "develop separately"....that was utilised by the group in question upon gaining power in 1948 to try and force increased such separation...The Afrikaans word "apartheid" literally translates into English as "separateness". Edited by legaleagle (25 Apr 2015 11.18am) And how is it going for them down in sunny South Africa since Apartheid was removed ? Have they all started living together in wonderful harmony ? Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.19am) Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.20am) It's obviously not a better idea to try to keep races apart. Is this even something people are still questioning? Problems aren't solved overnight, but it does us no good to sustain dynamics that we don't need to. Really ? I don't think we sustain it. Just the opposite. We resist natural leanings in the interests of commerce. Generally, people migrate to make money not to live with other races or nationalities. Sometimes they are escaping oppression from other religious groups or races. Hardly an obvious indication that a rainbow nation has ever or will ever work. Remove one lot of reasons for division and we will invent some new ones. Assimilate one group of people and another will be lining up right behind them. People have tribal aspects to them of course but this manifests itself in various ways, largely cultural. What you grow up around and educate yourself about largely indicates what is 'foreign' to you. Whether that's race, disability, nationality. That's why your seeming approval of apartheid is wrong. It helps to sustain and give the stamp of approval to a myth. Race is important not because it is, but people people think it is. Clearly you do, I don't. It is not a question of approval. Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour. Race is just one of many differences that exist, or have been manufactured, that humans use as an excuse to divide themselves. History has shown that we divide ourselves out of choice, most likely driven by a natural instinct. The human brain has given us intelligence along with boundless stupidity and arrogance. Some of us think that we can interpret nature anyway we like to suit our own particular political agenda but the fact remains that the hidden forces of biology dictate our actions and thinking far more than most acknowledge or recognise. The evidence suggests that a desire to live in advantageous groups is part of that. Advantageous can mean adhering to racial, political or religious associations. Take it or leave it, I don't care. This was gone from rough waters, or overboard as far as I'm concerned. As stated, there are very many ways that people do and don't differentiate. Sometimes it may be race, other times in some societies culturally race may not be so much of an issue, something else will be. I have plenty of friends of various races. You seem to keep implying that in doing so I am going against my nature. Nature has not 'divided' black and white people in any meaningful way, hence the many millions of mixed race children. To create an analogy comparing different races to "cats and dogs" suggests the distance you evidently view others, not the reality of the situation. Edited by imbored (26 Apr 2015 9.05pm) It's just not that simple. You've made your position quite clear. You inferred that getting rid of Apartheid, was resisting our natural leanings, so my comment stands. But of course you also said.. Quote Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour. wildly overestimating how different race makes a person by using different species as examples, then directly suggesting that this difference 'must be reflected in human behaviour'. Clearly you think a person's race goes much further than skin deep. Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 3.23am) The only thing that is clear is that you interpret everything I say in a way that suits your own agenda. There does not need to be any significant physiological difference between so called races to make them behave differently toward each other. I do not know if culture related to different races or regions are nature or nurture. I would suspect the latter, but it makes no difference, it exists. The fact that people have created tribalism on many levels should tell you that it is the human condition to separate themselves from others for all kinds of perceived advantages. If your personal politics or circumstances does not allow you to recognise that the I can't help you with your denial. Edited by TheJudge (27 Apr 2015 11.23am) You don't much like people with arbitrary differences to yourself. Some others feel the same way. Yes, we get it. You inferred that race conveyed behavioural differences by nature, now you're not so sure. If it's nurture then my original comments that apartheid isn't a great idea are correct because people are exposed to closer life experiences. If you're sticking with nature, it's just a racist belief, to believe that races are so different in how they behave they should be kept apart. Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 11.59am) At last, you manage to get the word "racist" in. Congratulations. I see that a grown up discussion is a little too much to expect. There is little point in me responding further because you only interpret what I say in a way that suits your mindset. Believing that race is such a differentiating factor it's a benefit to keep people apart based on it is a racist belief. Infering that different skin colour equals different behaviour based on biological factors is too. It's possible you've just made a pigs eye of trying to say something and it's come off badly, I can accept that. Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 4.33pm)
Alert a moderator to this post

imbored

UK 27 Apr 15 4.21pm

Quote TheJudge at 27 Apr 2015 12.39pm

Quote imbored at 27 Apr 2015 11.48am

Quote TheJudge at 27 Apr 2015 11.21am

Quote imbored at 27 Apr 2015 1.46am

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 10.04pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 9.03pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 8.40pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 7.03pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 6.19pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 4.48pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 1.19am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 10.55am

Quote TheJudge at 25 Apr 2015 9.54am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 12.54am

-------------------------------------------------------

An amusing post but flawed.

....................................................

Blimey,I must bow down to the king of objective rationality?!

Of course all our views are subjective and influenced by our ideological views,including your's.Indeed,very much including your's.

As for your subjective view being backed up as you state by "statistical evidence",well on the basis of the only link you have posted so far...

Edited by legaleagle (25 Apr 2015 11.18am)

And how is it going for them down in sunny South Africa since Apartheid was removed ? Have they all started living together in wonderful harmony ?

Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.19am)

Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.20am)

Edited by imbored (26 Apr 2015 9.05pm)

It's just not that simple.

You've made your position quite clear. You inferred that getting rid of Apartheid, was resisting our natural leanings, so my comment stands.

But of course you also said..

Quote Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour.

Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 3.23am)

Edited by TheJudge (27 Apr 2015 11.23am)

You don't much like people with arbitrary differences to yourself. Some others feel the same way. Yes, we get it.

You inferred that race conveyed behavioural differences by nature, now you're not so sure. If it's nurture then my original comments that apartheid isn't a great idea are correct because people are exposed to closer life experiences. If you're sticking with nature, it's just a racist belief, to believe that races are so different in how they behave they should be kept apart.

Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 11.59am)

Believing that race is such a differentiating factor it's a benefit to keep people apart based on it is a racist belief. Infering that different skin colour equals different behaviour based on biological factors is too.

It's possible you've just made a pigs eye of trying to say something and it's come off badly, I can accept that.

Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 4.33pm)

Alert a moderator to this post

TheJudge 27 Apr 15 4.31pm
Quote imbored at 27 Apr 2015 4.21pm Quote TheJudge at 27 Apr 2015 12.39pm Quote imbored at 27 Apr 2015 11.48am Quote TheJudge at 27 Apr 2015 11.21am Quote imbored at 27 Apr 2015 1.46am Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 10.04pm Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 9.03pm Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 8.40pm Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 7.03pm Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 6.19pm Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 4.48pm Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 1.19am Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 10.55am Quote TheJudge at 25 Apr 2015 9.54am Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 12.54am ------------------------------------------------------- An amusing post but flawed. We are not tlaking about some sort of enforced apartheid here, we are talking about natural bonds and preferences. Religion, culture and race are related to some extent as you well know but it is not a simple formula as you rightly suggest. There are quite clearly sociological and anthropological reasons why people like to live together or apart including long standing religious and historical ones. I'm not sure why you deny this or why you see it as some sort of ideological heresy. It is what it is Clealy you believe that my interpretation of the truth is tainted in some way but I would suggest to you that you entertain the idea that maybe your world view is equally if not more prejudiced. There is no racial or religious prejudice in my observations. I am just saying things as I see them. My observations are supported by both anecdotal and statistical evidence. Yours I suspect are driven by uncontrolled ideological fantasy. .................................................... Blimey,I must bow down to the king of objective rationality?! Of course all our views are subjective and influenced by our ideological views,including your's.Indeed,very much including your's. You suggest that because I don't agree people generally within in the UK today (which was the point of your posts) prefer to live apart on the basis of ethnicity,I am therefore a uncontrolled ideological fantasist.That's just plain silly... As for your subjective view being backed up as you state by "statistical evidence",well on the basis of the only link you have posted so far... Btw,the philosophical underpinning of Apartheid's ideologues was that the races supposedly preferred to live apart and "develop separately"....that was utilised by the group in question upon gaining power in 1948 to try and force increased such separation...The Afrikaans word "apartheid" literally translates into English as "separateness". Edited by legaleagle (25 Apr 2015 11.18am) And how is it going for them down in sunny South Africa since Apartheid was removed ? Have they all started living together in wonderful harmony ? Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.19am) Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.20am) It's obviously not a better idea to try to keep races apart. Is this even something people are still questioning? Problems aren't solved overnight, but it does us no good to sustain dynamics that we don't need to. Really ? I don't think we sustain it. Just the opposite. We resist natural leanings in the interests of commerce. Generally, people migrate to make money not to live with other races or nationalities. Sometimes they are escaping oppression from other religious groups or races. Hardly an obvious indication that a rainbow nation has ever or will ever work. Remove one lot of reasons for division and we will invent some new ones. Assimilate one group of people and another will be lining up right behind them. People have tribal aspects to them of course but this manifests itself in various ways, largely cultural. What you grow up around and educate yourself about largely indicates what is 'foreign' to you. Whether that's race, disability, nationality. That's why your seeming approval of apartheid is wrong. It helps to sustain and give the stamp of approval to a myth. Race is important not because it is, but people people think it is. Clearly you do, I don't. It is not a question of approval. Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour. Race is just one of many differences that exist, or have been manufactured, that humans use as an excuse to divide themselves. History has shown that we divide ourselves out of choice, most likely driven by a natural instinct. The human brain has given us intelligence along with boundless stupidity and arrogance. Some of us think that we can interpret nature anyway we like to suit our own particular political agenda but the fact remains that the hidden forces of biology dictate our actions and thinking far more than most acknowledge or recognise. The evidence suggests that a desire to live in advantageous groups is part of that. Advantageous can mean adhering to racial, political or religious associations. Take it or leave it, I don't care. This was gone from rough waters, or overboard as far as I'm concerned. As stated, there are very many ways that people do and don't differentiate. Sometimes it may be race, other times in some societies culturally race may not be so much of an issue, something else will be. I have plenty of friends of various races. You seem to keep implying that in doing so I am going against my nature. Nature has not 'divided' black and white people in any meaningful way, hence the many millions of mixed race children. To create an analogy comparing different races to "cats and dogs" suggests the distance you evidently view others, not the reality of the situation. Edited by imbored (26 Apr 2015 9.05pm) It's just not that simple. You've made your position quite clear. You inferred that getting rid of Apartheid, was resisting our natural leanings, so my comment stands. But of course you also said.. Quote Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour. wildly overestimating how different race makes a person by using different species as examples, then directly suggesting that this difference 'must be reflected in human behaviour'. Clearly you think a person's race goes much further than skin deep. Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 3.23am) The only thing that is clear is that you interpret everything I say in a way that suits your own agenda. There does not need to be any significant physiological difference between so called races to make them behave differently toward each other. I do not know if culture related to different races or regions are nature or nurture. I would suspect the latter, but it makes no difference, it exists. The fact that people have created tribalism on many levels should tell you that it is the human condition to separate themselves from others for all kinds of perceived advantages. If your personal politics or circumstances does not allow you to recognise that the I can't help you with your denial. Edited by TheJudge (27 Apr 2015 11.23am) You don't much like people with arbitrary differences to yourself. Some others feel the same way. Yes, we get it. You inferred that race conveyed behavioural differences by nature, now you're not so sure. If it's nurture then my original comments that apartheid isn't a great idea are correct because people are exposed to closer life experiences. If you're sticking with nature, it's just a racist belief, to believe that races are so different in how they behave they should be kept apart. Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 11.59am) At last, you manage to get the word "racist" in. Congratulations. I see that a grown up discussion is a little too much to expect. There is little point in me responding further because you only interpret what I say in a way that suits your mindset. Believing that race is such a differentiating factor it's a benefit to keep people apart based on it is a racist belief. Infering that different skin colour equals different behaviour based on biological factors is too. It's possible you've just made a pigs eye of trying to say something and it's come off badly, I can accept that. Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 4.26pm) Where has anyone said any of that ? Maybe you just like trolling. The phrase is "pigs ear" BTW.
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TheJudge

27 Apr 15 4.31pm

Quote imbored at 27 Apr 2015 4.21pm

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Quote imbored at 27 Apr 2015 11.48am

Quote TheJudge at 27 Apr 2015 11.21am

Quote imbored at 27 Apr 2015 1.46am

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 10.04pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 9.03pm

Quote TheJudge at 26 Apr 2015 8.40pm

Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 7.03pm

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Quote imbored at 26 Apr 2015 4.48pm

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Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 10.55am

Quote TheJudge at 25 Apr 2015 9.54am

Quote legaleagle at 25 Apr 2015 12.54am

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An amusing post but flawed.

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Blimey,I must bow down to the king of objective rationality?!

Of course all our views are subjective and influenced by our ideological views,including your's.Indeed,very much including your's.

As for your subjective view being backed up as you state by "statistical evidence",well on the basis of the only link you have posted so far...

Edited by legaleagle (25 Apr 2015 11.18am)

And how is it going for them down in sunny South Africa since Apartheid was removed ? Have they all started living together in wonderful harmony ?

Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.19am)

Edited by TheJudge (26 Apr 2015 1.20am)

Edited by imbored (26 Apr 2015 9.05pm)

It's just not that simple.

You've made your position quite clear. You inferred that getting rid of Apartheid, was resisting our natural leanings, so my comment stands.

But of course you also said..

Quote Nature has divided humanity into so called races in the same way that it created dogs and cats. Differentiation is a fact of biology, and that must be reflected in human behaviour.

Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 3.23am)

Edited by TheJudge (27 Apr 2015 11.23am)

You don't much like people with arbitrary differences to yourself. Some others feel the same way. Yes, we get it.

You inferred that race conveyed behavioural differences by nature, now you're not so sure. If it's nurture then my original comments that apartheid isn't a great idea are correct because people are exposed to closer life experiences. If you're sticking with nature, it's just a racist belief, to believe that races are so different in how they behave they should be kept apart.

Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 11.59am)

It's possible you've just made a pigs eye of trying to say something and it's come off badly, I can accept that.

Edited by imbored (27 Apr 2015 4.26pm)

Where has anyone said any of that ?

Maybe you just like trolling.

The phrase is "pigs ear" BTW.

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