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Mapletree Croydon 28 May 19 2.25pm
Originally posted by lefty27 I don’t understand the delusion of people claiming the European results were a win for remain. It seems to me the liberals and the greens were beaten by the brexit party both in seats and share of the vote. You don't appear to have taken all of the data into account. In seats yes but in terms of overall vote share: Brexit plus UKIP = 34.9% LibDems, Greens, SNP, Change, Plaid Cymru = 40.4% [Link]
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Mapletree

Croydon 28 May 19 2.25pm

Originally posted by lefty27

I don’t understand the delusion of people claiming the European results were a win for remain. It seems to me the liberals and the greens were beaten by the brexit party both in seats and share of the vote.

You don't appear to have taken all of the data into account. In seats yes but in terms of overall vote share:

Brexit plus UKIP = 34.9%

LibDems, Greens, SNP, Change, Plaid Cymru = 40.4%

[Link]

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Jimenez SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 28 May 19 2.25pm
Originally posted by lefty27 I voted remain and tend to vote for a centre left party in a general election. I don’t understand the delusion of people claiming the European results were a win for remain. It seems to me the liberals and the greens were beaten by the brexit party both in seats and share of the vote. Lumping labour in with those results just doesn’t work as many labour voters voted for brexit. I can’t understand people who claim to have liberal views now want to disregard the result of a democratic referendum based purely on economic reasons. I think this whole situation reflects so badly on us as a democracy and would 100% vote the other way if we have another referendum. The most sensible post on this topic I've heard. Pro USA & Israel
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Jimenez

SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 28 May 19 2.25pm

Originally posted by lefty27

I voted remain and tend to vote for a centre left party in a general election.
I don’t understand the delusion of people claiming the European results were a win for remain. It seems to me the liberals and the greens were beaten by the brexit party both in seats and share of the vote. Lumping labour in with those results just doesn’t work as many labour voters voted for brexit.
I can’t understand people who claim to have liberal views now want to disregard the result of a democratic referendum based purely on economic reasons. I think this whole situation reflects so badly on us as a democracy and would 100% vote the other way if we have another referendum.

The most sensible post on this topic I've heard.

Pro USA & Israel

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Mapletree Croydon 28 May 19 2.32pm
Originally posted by lefty27 I can’t understand people who claim to have liberal views now want to disregard the result of a democratic referendum based purely on economic reasons. So you believe people realised how much worse off they would be post Brexit? I don't. The economics was not properly explained and the people trusted populist statements. In addition, the people that voted are no longer the the same as the people who would live with the vote. The demographics have changed such that a Brexit vote now would be unlikely. Young people will refuse to be saddled with the lack of informed choice that drove the first vote. The longer the impasse lasts the more the voters will have changed.
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Mapletree

Croydon 28 May 19 2.32pm

Originally posted by lefty27

I can’t understand people who claim to have liberal views now want to disregard the result of a democratic referendum based purely on economic reasons.

So you believe people realised how much worse off they would be post Brexit? I don't. The economics was not properly explained and the people trusted populist statements.

In addition, the people that voted are no longer the the same as the people who would live with the vote. The demographics have changed such that a Brexit vote now would be unlikely. Young people will refuse to be saddled with the lack of informed choice that drove the first vote. The longer the impasse lasts the more the voters will have changed.

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Jimenez SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 28 May 19 2.34pm
Originally posted by Mapletree So you believe people realised how much worse off they would be post Brexit? I don't. The economics was not properly explained and the people trusted populist statements. In addition, the people that voted are no longer the the same as the people who would live with the vote. The demographics have changed such that a Brexit vote now would be unlikely. Young people will refuse to be saddled with the lack of informed choice that drove the first vote. The longer the impasse lasts the more the voters will have changed. How about implementing the first referendum vote first? Pro USA & Israel
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Jimenez

SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 28 May 19 2.34pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

So you believe people realised how much worse off they would be post Brexit? I don't. The economics was not properly explained and the people trusted populist statements.

How about implementing the first referendum vote first?

Pro USA & Israel

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Badger11 Beckenham 28 May 19 2.40pm
Originally posted by Jimenez [Link] This from a party that calls the Brexit Party 'Right Wing' they have abandoned huge swathes of truly working class folk & mainly appeal to those Waitrose buying metropolitan types Just heard a lawyer on this. Yet again Labour have shot themselves in the foot. The Human Rights commission will look at Labour's process for handling anti Semitism cases specifically are they handled fairly, with due process and in a reasonable time period COMPARED to other types of complaints. In other words if all types of complaints take 3 years that inefficient not racist. Within 1 day of Campbell tweeting he voted Lib Dem he is dismissed from the Labour party yet hundreds of anti semetic cases have still to be resolved. I get that this is Corbyn getting payback but it wont look good with the HR Commission because it shows that Labour can move into high gear when it wants to. Edited by Badger11 (28 May 2019 2.41pm) One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 28 May 19 2.40pm

Originally posted by Jimenez

[Link]

This from a party that calls the Brexit Party 'Right Wing' they have abandoned huge swathes of truly working class folk & mainly appeal to those Waitrose buying metropolitan types

Just heard a lawyer on this. Yet again Labour have shot themselves in the foot. The Human Rights commission will look at Labour's process for handling anti Semitism cases specifically are they handled fairly, with due process and in a reasonable time period COMPARED to other types of complaints. In other words if all types of complaints take 3 years that inefficient not racist.

Within 1 day of Campbell tweeting he voted Lib Dem he is dismissed from the Labour party yet hundreds of anti semetic cases have still to be resolved. I get that this is Corbyn getting payback but it wont look good with the HR Commission because it shows that Labour can move into high gear when it wants to.

Edited by Badger11 (28 May 2019 2.41pm)

One more point

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Badger11 Beckenham 28 May 19 2.42pm
Originally posted by Mapletree You don't appear to have taken all of the data into account. In seats yes but in terms of overall vote share: Brexit plus UKIP = 34.9% LibDems, Greens, SNP, Change, Plaid Cymru = 40.4% [Link] Didn't you forget someone? So Tory and Labour votes no longer count? One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 28 May 19 2.42pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

You don't appear to have taken all of the data into account. In seats yes but in terms of overall vote share:

Brexit plus UKIP = 34.9%

LibDems, Greens, SNP, Change, Plaid Cymru = 40.4%

[Link]

Didn't you forget someone? So Tory and Labour votes no longer count?

One more point

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Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 28 May 19 3.05pm
Originally posted by Mapletree You don't appear to have taken all of the data into account. In seats yes but in terms of overall vote share: Brexit plus UKIP = 34.9% LibDems, Greens, SNP, Change, Plaid Cymru = 40.4% [Link] As I said earlier in the thread, using your logic, Man City didn't actually win the Premiership at all because the aggregate points gained by all the other competing teams would have placed them bottom. You really are plumbing fresh depths of absurdity with this type of comment. Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham
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Cucking Funt

Clapham on the Back 28 May 19 3.05pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

You don't appear to have taken all of the data into account. In seats yes but in terms of overall vote share:

Brexit plus UKIP = 34.9%

LibDems, Greens, SNP, Change, Plaid Cymru = 40.4%

[Link]

As I said earlier in the thread, using your logic, Man City didn't actually win the Premiership at all because the aggregate points gained by all the other competing teams would have placed them bottom.

You really are plumbing fresh depths of absurdity with this type of comment.

Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 28 May 19 3.16pm
Originally posted by Badger11 And night is day. A party that did not exist 6 weeks ago becomes the largest party after the election and one of the largest in the EU Parliament with 32% of the vote. Only 5 seats? Doesn't sound much but there are only about 70+ seats on offer and it's not a fair analogy as he left UKIP. Change UK formed about the same time only got 600,000 votes and about 4% of the vote yet some people are saying for a new party they did OK. If 32% of the vote is failure I bet Corbyn and the Tories would bite your hand off for that kind of failure. I think you, and Hrolf, are missing the point that Mrs Mensch is making. She is suggesting that the "Brexit Party" is, in effect, "UKIP mark2" in terms of a protest vote at a EU election, Farage being the linking factor. Putting things into context means that, in her opinion, the result was a failure for him. Ignore her if you wish but I have found her analysis to generally be on the money even it takes some time to be more generally realised. Protest votes are all well and good but they tend to evaporate, as did UKIP's, at a GE. Whether they do again doesn't depend on Farage. It depends on what the UK Parliament does in the coming months. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 28 May 19 3.16pm

Originally posted by Badger11

And night is day.

A party that did not exist 6 weeks ago becomes the largest party after the election and one of the largest in the EU Parliament with 32% of the vote. Only 5 seats? Doesn't sound much but there are only about 70+ seats on offer and it's not a fair analogy as he left UKIP.

Change UK formed about the same time only got 600,000 votes and about 4% of the vote yet some people are saying for a new party they did OK.

If 32% of the vote is failure I bet Corbyn and the Tories would bite your hand off for that kind of failure.

I think you, and Hrolf, are missing the point that Mrs Mensch is making. She is suggesting that the "Brexit Party" is, in effect, "UKIP mark2" in terms of a protest vote at a EU election, Farage being the linking factor. Putting things into context means that, in her opinion, the result was a failure for him. Ignore her if you wish but I have found her analysis to generally be on the money even it takes some time to be more generally realised.

Protest votes are all well and good but they tend to evaporate, as did UKIP's, at a GE. Whether they do again doesn't depend on Farage. It depends on what the UK Parliament does in the coming months.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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elgrande bedford 28 May 19 3.21pm
I wonder if people can clutch as much on the new paper straws. If my aunty had bollocks,she would be my uncle. always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.
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elgrande

bedford 28 May 19 3.21pm

I wonder if people can clutch as much on the new paper straws.

If my aunty had bollocks,she would be my uncle.

always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 28 May 19 3.26pm
Originally posted by lefty27 I voted remain and tend to vote for a centre left party in a general election. I don’t understand the delusion of people claiming the European results were a win for remain. It seems to me the liberals and the greens were beaten by the brexit party both in seats and share of the vote. Lumping labour in with those results just doesn’t work as many labour voters voted for brexit. I can’t understand people who claim to have liberal views now want to disregard the result of a democratic referendum based purely on economic reasons. I think this whole situation reflects so badly on us as a democracy and would 100% vote the other way if we have another referendum. I would urge you to think again. The referendum was NOT democratic. No referendum in the UK can be because referendums are not recognised in our system. What gave it democratic legitimacy were the commitments given to respect the result and the enactment of Article 50. However everyone, MPs included, are entitled to change their mind in the light of new knowledge or changed circumstances. Commitments can be withdrawn and Acts repealed. Rather than being a failure of our democracy what we are witnessing is a triumph of it, as the will of Parliament is being shown to be paramount. So this actually reflects very well on us as a democracy. It's just such a pity that so many don't understand this. Edited by Wisbech Eagle (28 May 2019 3.26pm) For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 28 May 19 3.26pm

Originally posted by lefty27

I would urge you to think again.

The referendum was NOT democratic. No referendum in the UK can be because referendums are not recognised in our system. What gave it democratic legitimacy were the commitments given to respect the result and the enactment of Article 50. However everyone, MPs included, are entitled to change their mind in the light of new knowledge or changed circumstances. Commitments can be withdrawn and Acts repealed.

Rather than being a failure of our democracy what we are witnessing is a triumph of it, as the will of Parliament is being shown to be paramount. So this actually reflects very well on us as a democracy. It's just such a pity that so many don't understand this.

Edited by Wisbech Eagle (28 May 2019 3.26pm)

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Badger11 Beckenham 28 May 19 3.34pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle I think you, and Hrolf, are missing the point that Mrs Mensch is making. She is suggesting that the "Brexit Party" is, in effect, "UKIP mark2" in terms of a protest vote at a EU election, Farage being the linking factor. Putting things into context means that, in her opinion, the result was a failure for him. Ignore her if you wish but I have found her analysis to generally be on the money even it takes some time to be more generally realised. Protest votes are all well and good but they tend to evaporate, as did UKIP's, at a GE. Whether they do again doesn't depend on Farage. It depends on what the UK Parliament does in the coming months. Well on this point we can agree. Of course The Brexit party is a protest vote I said from the out I voted for them to force the main parties to keep their electoral promises. If Brexit is delivered then Farage may still go one but I agree most voters will revert to voting for the major parties. And I wasn't missing the point it wasn't a failure for him it certainly was for the Tories and Labour and Change UK. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 28 May 19 3.34pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Protest votes are all well and good but they tend to evaporate, as did UKIP's, at a GE. Whether they do again doesn't depend on Farage. It depends on what the UK Parliament does in the coming months.

Well on this point we can agree. Of course The Brexit party is a protest vote I said from the out I voted for them to force the main parties to keep their electoral promises. If Brexit is delivered then Farage may still go one but I agree most voters will revert to voting for the major parties.

And I wasn't missing the point it wasn't a failure for him it certainly was for the Tories and Labour and Change UK.

One more point

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Stirlingsays 28 May 19 3.34pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle I would urge you to think again. The referendum was NOT democratic. No referendum in the UK can be because referendums are not recognised in our system. What gave it democratic legitimacy were the commitments given to respect the result and the enactment of Article 50. However everyone, MPs included, are entitled to change their mind in the light of new knowledge or changed circumstances. Commitments can be withdrawn and Acts repealed. Rather than being a failure of our democracy what we are witnessing is a triumph of it, as the will of Parliament is being shown to be paramount. So this actually reflects very well on us as a democracy. It's just such a pity that so many don't understand this. Edited by Wisbech Eagle (28 May 2019 3.26pm) What a complete and utter load of tosh. The referendum was forwarded by a democratically elected government and had previous precedent. Its decision was again affirmed by the parliament of democratically elected MPs. You really have no position or right to present a case that the referendum result was not democratic. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

28 May 19 3.34pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I would urge you to think again.

Edited by Wisbech Eagle (28 May 2019 3.26pm)

What a complete and utter load of tosh.

The referendum was forwarded by a democratically elected government and had previous precedent. Its decision was again affirmed by the parliament of democratically elected MPs.

You really have no position or right to present a case that the referendum result was not democratic.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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