So, after a lot of preamble, you have come up with "an unscientific, yet simple way of" measuring if it is working or not? Which appears to be, wait a few years and see. What was the point of your answer? You then seem to suggest measurement is not impossible. Surely your superiority can explain to us laymen how this complex research might be conducted. No?

Highlighted Get over yourself. You are as thick as anyone else on here.

Systematically dragged down by the lawmakers

Let' s try this way.

Who is responsible for drawing up new legislation in the EU?

Who is responsible for promulgating the legislation and putting it into effect/becoming law?

The answer seems to be the European Commission which with few exceptions has control over all legislation.

Each member state has one commissioner. the last British commissioner was a civil servant.

That to me is having no control over legislation and having an unelected representative who is chosen by the Govt of the day.

Edited by HKOwen (23 Feb 2023 8.15am)

Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance.

I was simplifying for the benefit of the audience. Your emotional outburst is also rather obviously incorrect, it’s an observable fact that the levels of stupidity on this, or any forum for that matter, run deep and are richly varied. I mean, you’re demonstrating that right now - age clearly does not always equate to intelligence or wisdom, in fact statistically it results in gradual, sometimes aggressive, cognitive decline. Which can be a big problem if already starting from a low base.

Also, and this made me chuckle, ‘Come up with’?

Expects someone to lay out and devise, in detail, an exact method for measurement as to whether we are doing better or worse because of Brexit in 5 minutes. On a forum. I’m more sure than you are about who is the ‘thick’ one here.

The point, which you’ve both missed and not responded properly to, is that a body of individuals with the qualifications, intelligence and time to do so will at some point pull together a comprehensive study that concludes either way. That conclusion will then be an excellent guide as to whether leaving or staying was or would have been the better option. Until that occurs, I see little value in debating using ideological absolutisms either way especially when many are suggesting that the outcome is irrelevant ‘because democracy’. Slavishly adhering to ideology regardless of outcome is about as stupid as it gets.

Again - uncomfortable for some, but it may well be that the price of prosperity is in fact compromising on full Independence and having to rejoin. It also may not and we will end up better off than the EU. But you need to be open to the fact that either could turn out to be true.

Edited by SW19 CPFC (23 Feb 2023 8.54am)

Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

The EU necessarily works differently to national parliaments. The real question is not whether it's different, because it is, but whether it works.

The Commission develops legislation to meet the objectives set out in the Treaties. They don't put it into law. The Council, and the Parliament, do that. The Parliament can both amend legislation and request the Commission to prepare it. It can also dismiss the Commission.

The Commissioners are not politicians. They are administrators, working under delegated authority.

They might be chosen by the "government of the day" but we choose that government.

Those who wish to see all decisions taken locally are never going to accept the EU. Their only question is how local is local.

For others the principle of subsidiarity makes practical sense. The only question for them is where the line is drawn.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Despite the frequently heard claims to the contrary the EU is not a dictator. It is founded in it's shared democracies. Brexit proves that!

Whether more, or less, than other democratic systems is an irrelevancy. What's important is outcomes.

When it's the task of our elected representatives to take decisions which are in our best interests I want them to do that. If that means delegating some of those decisions to others then they have done the job we require of them. That's democracy.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

It's not democracy.

Edited by georgenorman (23 Feb 2023 10.28am)