Mmmm....that lobby is the source of a lot of funding of politicians in both houses. I'm not anti Israel but I notice that politicians who aren't in support of Israel are pretty rare in the US.

I don't regard criticism of the Jewish lobby is anti Semitic. I don't regard criticism of Jews who hold one attitude towards immigration when it comes to the US but another one when it comes to Israel as anti Semitic.

Anti semitism is an intolerance of someone for being Jewish regardless of what views they have....I have noticed how quick many people are (I'm not referring to you) to regard any criticism as a form of racism to frighten and shut people up.

I would regard myself as for the existence of Israel but not particularly fond of the activist lobbies in the US and Europe.....But usually in favour of the significant minority of the western right wing voices in the Jewish community.

I think you are grouping a hell of a lot of people there....Obviously every group contains varying strength of feeling for various policies....from lukewarm to strong....I think to be fair you are talking about the activist wing of the evangelicals.

But in a generalised sense I wouldn't disagree as this policy is the end result.....However, this is also the position of the Jewish lobbies to an even more committed degree....Your appear to criticise one but not really the other.

On their support of Israel I can't say I consider Israel's opponents as more worthy.

Sure....correct.

There's a section to their activities in western and other countries....As too proof....I can only suggest that comes down to the balance of probabilities.....Who you believe and don't believe.......though personally I'm not thinking that a state which promotes regular 'death to America' chants and is known to sponsor terrorism is particular shy when it comes to opportunities which emerge.

[Link]

Yep....all done on the 'enemy of your enemy is your friend' basis....on both sides by the US and Saud.

Also I don't think it's right to say that Saudi doesn't get criticised.....but of course you are correct about the bias.....all done in self interest.

Your last paragraph echos the kind of thinking that Obama had as he entered his first term....Indeed he went palms open and appealed to Iran for a fresh start....That didn't work out well for him.

Now on the face of it there is something to be said for the neutral stance.....but I also think it's unrealistic. It has to be understood that the opposing positions that both countries hold is based upon decades of conflict. The cultural animus can't be undone with words......The US would have to abandon Israel and step back completely.

Essentially that would lead to Israel defending itself far more aggressively as it knew that its enemies no longer would fear US involvement......Nuclear war would be far more likely and if Israel lost you have the eventual slaughter of 15 million Jews.

As things stand....If I'm honest I don't see a way out without blood......But I think abandoning Israel would certainly lead to that blood being shed much sooner.

Also I'm European, so I have a bias towards Israel as it is a western facing democracy mostly filled by Jews from Europe......though I won't disagree with various criticisms.

Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Jan 2019 7.26pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Pew Research says evangelicals total 25%. [Link]

The research also says that 55% of evangelicals have conservative views. [Link]

The data does not support your claims on this.

PS Hamas - who ranked them no3 terrorists? Was it the US by chance? Is this the same Hamas that was duly elected through verified democratic process to govern? Once again, is "terrorist" an accurate term for a UN-sanctioned legitimate government? Obviously, they are far from angels, much of their activity probably does fall under the definition of "terrorism" and I would rather a secular, moderate liberal government in place. However, which Palestinian occupier of the Strip is going to vote for a government perceived as weak and who they would associate with the West that blindly supports their oppressor? Would you? No, this appears to be a label that neatly suits Israel and the US.

On which, $700M! Really? A drop in the Ocean compared to the money supplied to Israel by the US. Hardly fair given the rich oppresses and the poor are oppressed.

I have no easy solution for this complex conundrum and I want Israel to prosper in peace. However, the one source of this problem is the unbending support of the American Christian right for Israel. Less of that and maybe Israel can find a more intelligent solution that doesn't involve keeping their boot permanently on the Palestinian head. It is one of the primary causes of tension in the region; the other being the schism in which Iran plays only one part.

There is no such thing as the 'good guy' and the 'bad guy'. That kind of thinking isn't dealing with the harsh realities of the world.

Ultimately the real world is just a sophisticated version of the playground.....I find that a lot of nice left wing people are the type who rushed to the safety of the library during playtime...to avoid the reality.

Sure you can pretend you are apart from it and pick the obvious holes.....but like you realise...that won't save you from the bullet. Those who won't pick a side for themselves....It's just a matter of time before they get a side picked for them.

The Palestinian question is intractable, Israel will either exist or it won't. The Palestinians aren't going to live along side the Jews in peace so the Jews are slowly pushing them out.

The peace route died with Rabin.

Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Feb 2019 11.06am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

The Forbes article – which I linked to – ranked Hamas No.3 richest in the world behind the Taliban.

Again, you are using 'whataboutery' with regards to what the US gives Israel in military aid. We have been talking about the evil Iranian regime and keeping them in check or they will destabilise the whole region – it's not just about a beef with Israel.

"Hardly fair given the rich oppresses and the poor are oppressed." That's straight out of the Communist Manifesto!

Do you not think that IF Iran got a nuke, there would not be a nuclear arms race in the region? We are supposed to be decreasing nuclear weapons and not increasing. I'm sure you would agree that it wouldn't be a good idea for Saudi Arabia to have nuclear weapons.

Israel are well in range of Iran, Syria, Hezbollah and Hamas – yet they are the oppressors? Unlike South Korea, they have not asked for one US soldier to protect them. The defence assistance is not only morally right but is spent back in the US economy with US-made hardware and the countries work together to develop improved weaponry and security. And that ultimately helps the UK defence and NATO because the US and Israel are allies of ours – NOT Iran.

Edited by Penge Eagle (01 Feb 2019 12.57pm)

It IS the biggest state sponsor of terrorism and I have proved with evidence. That's the same data across the whole internet. Where is your information to disprove it? You don't have any!

I should be surprised that you would rather take sides with an evil dictatorship that not only threatens its neighbours and subsidises global terrorism, but oppresses and kills its own people over the USA. But you're a textbook leftist, so I'm not.