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jamiemartin721 Reading 21 Aug 14 6.24pm
Quote hellodah at 21 Aug 2014 5.28pm Cue posts from the Comrades telling us they are isolated incidents etc, etc ... 'high-spirited' kids etc - how having someone murdered in the street or blown up now and again is worth the tremendous benefits of having 'diversity'. Cue right wing reactionary knee jerk tar brushing. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 21 Aug 14 6.24pm

Quote hellodah at 21 Aug 2014 5.28pm

Cue posts from the Comrades telling us they are isolated incidents etc, etc ... 'high-spirited' kids etc - how having someone murdered in the street or blown up now and again is worth the tremendous benefits of having 'diversity'.

Cue right wing reactionary knee jerk tar brushing.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Stirlingsays 21 Aug 14 6.29pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 21 Aug 2014 6.24pm Quote hellodah at 21 Aug 2014 5.28pm Cue posts from the Comrades telling us they are isolated incidents etc, etc ... 'high-spirited' kids etc - how having someone murdered in the street or blown up now and again is worth the tremendous benefits of having 'diversity'. Cue right wing reactionary knee jerk tar brushing. Meanwhile the 'truth' probably lies somewhere in the middle. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

21 Aug 14 6.29pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 21 Aug 2014 6.24pm

Quote hellodah at 21 Aug 2014 5.28pm

Cue right wing reactionary knee jerk tar brushing.

Meanwhile the 'truth' probably lies somewhere in the middle.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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hibbystu tadworth 21 Aug 14 6.29pm
Can't be arsed to read the whole thread, has anyone posted the details of the Muslim peace movement in the UK condemning all these killings I support Scotland, Hibs and the Palace, no glory hunters here!!!!!! PLEASE SIR, CAN I HAVE A PIE!!
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hibbystu

tadworth 21 Aug 14 6.29pm

Can't be arsed to read the whole thread, has anyone posted the details of the Muslim peace movement in the UK condemning all these killings

I support Scotland, Hibs and the Palace, no glory hunters here!!!!!!

PLEASE SIR, CAN I HAVE A PIE!!

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jamiemartin721 Reading 21 Aug 14 6.33pm
Quote legaleagle at 20 Aug 2014 7.52pm Quote ASCPFC at 20 Aug 2014 5.09pm Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 20 Aug 2014 4.57pm Quote ASCPFC at 20 Aug 2014 4.46pm I'm surprised by all the calls to wipe them out. I would ask exactly who would you wipe out? People in these situations, when confronted by a force with overwhelming firepower, simply fade away and are driven underground. They begin using guerilla tactics and organising and funding themselves as an Islamic terrorist organisation. Before you know it the problem has spread worldwide to every city/airport/train station/school/university - you get the picture. My suggestion would be to combine a hard response with a deal of some kind. Maybe there could be some legitimate Muslim state run by ISIS where people could go and choose to live under Sharia law etc. if they so wished? Part of the deal could be to hand over anyone proven guilty of atrocities to be tried under international law at the Hague, or some such thing; rather than renditioning. The hard part would be getting them to talk which is why I would first assemble a huge force so they would know we mean business. using your logic though a huge force would be pointless as we wouldnt be able to do anything anyway. Where would you put this state? What country should give up their teritory to house these animals? Maybe somewhere with international jurisdiction like the Antartic? Yes a lot of these people would melt away but as with Pol Pot (to a degree), once the fear of them is removed, the people will rise against anyone who tries to disappear. You cannot be rational with these people. That is why we are always destined to lose unless we do something more drastic. Not really, a huge force would be necessary to get them to the negotiating table. Why else would they bother? They are pretty much doing what they want at present bar the odd air-strike. As for where would the state be, the obvious answer is more-or-less where it is already. I don't really like the idea of some radical Islamic state but if so many people seem to be attracted to it then who are we to stop them? Inevitably there will just be an escalation of the conflict until some solution is found. The doing something more drastic would be something akin to the US in Vietnam, the UN in Korea or everyone in Afghanistan. It would pretty likely never end and cause perhaps millions of casualties. This is not a conventonal force like the Iraqi army in Desert Storm. These are committed, well funded and highly manouverable forces who can quite easily disappear when needed. Dare I say it, I really wouldn't like to see the outcome of a massive US intervention. I say protect the borders of what they already have so they can't expand, step up airstrikes and pressure and then see what the diplomats can come up with when the heat dies down a bit. Edited by ASCPFC (20 Aug 2014 5.10pm) The major difference with Vietnam,Afghanistan,Korea etc is that they were essentially national liberation movements.Here,the underlying ideology is not nationalist but a multinational religious one.So,whether any binding "deal"could be cut (if one gets over whether that's a good idea or not) is,in my view,unlikely. The mere fact of "diplomatic" semi-recognition would give the underlying ideology incredible legitimacy (and support) all over the place... In terms of "sealing off" the territory they already have,do we just,as a part,leave any shia, christians,apostates still located there etc to their grisly fate? ISIS are more or less a 'national liberation movement', albeit one about the establishment of a Muslim Caliphate, their focus is primarily on the region of the Sunni North of Iraq and Eastern Syria. Which is a real problem, because they have a long term goal and achievable strategy, where as Al-Queda were purely 'terrorists' striking at the West, ISIS could quite conceivably establish themselves. They're also a lot more attractive to jyhadists for that reason - as they're representing something real to fight for. Their successes are also appealing to a number of less Islamic militants, such as Baathists and more nationalist insurgents in that Iraqi region, as they have a realistic hope of success. Especially with the prospect of Shia militants Those insurgents are fairly well established, know the area very well. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 21 Aug 14 6.33pm

Quote legaleagle at 20 Aug 2014 7.52pm

Quote ASCPFC at 20 Aug 2014 5.09pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 20 Aug 2014 4.57pm

Quote ASCPFC at 20 Aug 2014 4.46pm

I'm surprised by all the calls to wipe them out. I would ask exactly who would you wipe out? People in these situations, when confronted by a force with overwhelming firepower, simply fade away and are driven underground. They begin using guerilla tactics and organising and funding themselves as an Islamic terrorist organisation. Before you know it the problem has spread worldwide to every city/airport/train station/school/university - you get the picture.
My suggestion would be to combine a hard response with a deal of some kind. Maybe there could be some legitimate Muslim state run by ISIS where people could go and choose to live under Sharia law etc. if they so wished? Part of the deal could be to hand over anyone proven guilty of atrocities to be tried under international law at the Hague, or some such thing; rather than renditioning. The hard part would be getting them to talk which is why I would first assemble a huge force so they would know we mean business.

using your logic though a huge force would be pointless as we wouldnt be able to do anything anyway.

Where would you put this state? What country should give up their teritory to house these animals? Maybe somewhere with international jurisdiction like the Antartic?

Yes a lot of these people would melt away but as with Pol Pot (to a degree), once the fear of them is removed, the people will rise against anyone who tries to disappear.

You cannot be rational with these people. That is why we are always destined to lose unless we do something more drastic.

Not really, a huge force would be necessary to get them to the negotiating table. Why else would they bother? They are pretty much doing what they want at present bar the odd air-strike. As for where would the state be, the obvious answer is more-or-less where it is already. I don't really like the idea of some radical Islamic state but if so many people seem to be attracted to it then who are we to stop them? Inevitably there will just be an escalation of the conflict until some solution is found.
The doing something more drastic would be something akin to the US in Vietnam, the UN in Korea or everyone in Afghanistan. It would pretty likely never end and cause perhaps millions of casualties. This is not a conventonal force like the Iraqi army in Desert Storm. These are committed, well funded and highly manouverable forces who can quite easily disappear when needed. Dare I say it, I really wouldn't like to see the outcome of a massive US intervention. I say protect the borders of what they already have so they can't expand, step up airstrikes and pressure and then see what the diplomats can come up with when the heat dies down a bit.

Edited by ASCPFC (20 Aug 2014 5.10pm)

The major difference with Vietnam,Afghanistan,Korea etc is that they were essentially national liberation movements.Here,the underlying ideology is not nationalist but a multinational religious one.So,whether any binding "deal"could be cut (if one gets over whether that's a good idea or not) is,in my view,unlikely. The mere fact of "diplomatic" semi-recognition would give the underlying ideology incredible legitimacy (and support) all over the place...

In terms of "sealing off" the territory they already have,do we just,as a part,leave any shia, christians,apostates still located there etc to their grisly fate?

ISIS are more or less a 'national liberation movement', albeit one about the establishment of a Muslim Caliphate, their focus is primarily on the region of the Sunni North of Iraq and Eastern Syria.

Which is a real problem, because they have a long term goal and achievable strategy, where as Al-Queda were purely 'terrorists' striking at the West, ISIS could quite conceivably establish themselves. They're also a lot more attractive to jyhadists for that reason - as they're representing something real to fight for.

Their successes are also appealing to a number of less Islamic militants, such as Baathists and more nationalist insurgents in that Iraqi region, as they have a realistic hope of success. Especially with the prospect of Shia militants

Those insurgents are fairly well established, know the area very well.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 21 Aug 14 6.35pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 21 Aug 2014 6.29pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 21 Aug 2014 6.24pm Quote hellodah at 21 Aug 2014 5.28pm Cue posts from the Comrades telling us they are isolated incidents etc, etc ... 'high-spirited' kids etc - how having someone murdered in the street or blown up now and again is worth the tremendous benefits of having 'diversity'. Cue right wing reactionary knee jerk tar brushing. Meanwhile the 'truth' probably lies somewhere in the middle. Doesn't it always. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
Alert a moderator to this post

jamiemartin721

Reading 21 Aug 14 6.35pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 21 Aug 2014 6.29pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 21 Aug 2014 6.24pm

Quote hellodah at 21 Aug 2014 5.28pm

Cue right wing reactionary knee jerk tar brushing.

Meanwhile the 'truth' probably lies somewhere in the middle.

Doesn't it always.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

Alert a moderator to this post

hellodah 21 Aug 14 7.27pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 21 Aug 2014 6.24pm Quote hellodah at 21 Aug 2014 5.28pm Cue posts from the Comrades telling us they are isolated incidents etc, etc ... 'high-spirited' kids etc - how having someone murdered in the street or blown up now and again is worth the tremendous benefits of having 'diversity'. Cue right wing reactionary knee jerk tar brushing. Comrade Martin right on cue with weasel words that criticism of Islamic extremism is 'tar brushing'.
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hellodah

21 Aug 14 7.27pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 21 Aug 2014 6.24pm

Quote hellodah at 21 Aug 2014 5.28pm

Cue right wing reactionary knee jerk tar brushing.

Comrade Martin right on cue with weasel words that criticism of Islamic extremism is 'tar brushing'.

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elgrande bedford 21 Aug 14 7.48pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 21 Aug 2014 6.33pm Quote legaleagle at 20 Aug 2014 7.52pm Quote ASCPFC at 20 Aug 2014 5.09pm Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 20 Aug 2014 4.57pm Quote ASCPFC at 20 Aug 2014 4.46pm I'm surprised by all the calls to wipe them out. I would ask exactly who would you wipe out? People in these situations, when confronted by a force with overwhelming firepower, simply fade away and are driven underground. They begin using guerilla tactics and organising and funding themselves as an Islamic terrorist organisation. Before you know it the problem has spread worldwide to every city/airport/train station/school/university - you get the picture. My suggestion would be to combine a hard response with a deal of some kind. Maybe there could be some legitimate Muslim state run by ISIS where people could go and choose to live under Sharia law etc. if they so wished? Part of the deal could be to hand over anyone proven guilty of atrocities to be tried under international law at the Hague, or some such thing; rather than renditioning. The hard part would be getting them to talk which is why I would first assemble a huge force so they would know we mean business. using your logic though a huge force would be pointless as we wouldnt be able to do anything anyway. Where would you put this state? What country should give up their teritory to house these animals? Maybe somewhere with international jurisdiction like the Antartic? Yes a lot of these people would melt away but as with Pol Pot (to a degree), once the fear of them is removed, the people will rise against anyone who tries to disappear. You cannot be rational with these people. That is why we are always destined to lose unless we do something more drastic. Not really, a huge force would be necessary to get them to the negotiating table. Why else would they bother? They are pretty much doing what they want at present bar the odd air-strike. As for where would the state be, the obvious answer is more-or-less where it is already. I don't really like the idea of some radical Islamic state but if so many people seem to be attracted to it then who are we to stop them? Inevitably there will just be an escalation of the conflict until some solution is found. The doing something more drastic would be something akin to the US in Vietnam, the UN in Korea or everyone in Afghanistan. It would pretty likely never end and cause perhaps millions of casualties. This is not a conventonal force like the Iraqi army in Desert Storm. These are committed, well funded and highly manouverable forces who can quite easily disappear when needed. Dare I say it, I really wouldn't like to see the outcome of a massive US intervention. I say protect the borders of what they already have so they can't expand, step up airstrikes and pressure and then see what the diplomats can come up with when the heat dies down a bit. Edited by ASCPFC (20 Aug 2014 5.10pm) The major difference with Vietnam,Afghanistan,Korea etc is that they were essentially national liberation movements.Here,the underlying ideology is not nationalist but a multinational religious one.So,whether any binding "deal"could be cut (if one gets over whether that's a good idea or not) is,in my view,unlikely. The mere fact of "diplomatic" semi-recognition would give the underlying ideology incredible legitimacy (and support) all over the place... In terms of "sealing off" the territory they already have,do we just,as a part,leave any shia, christians,apostates still located there etc to their grisly fate? ISIS are more or less a 'national liberation movement', albeit one about the establishment of a Muslim Caliphate, their focus is primarily on the region of the Sunni North of Iraq and Eastern Syria. Which is a real problem, because they have a long term goal and achievable strategy, where as Al-Queda were purely 'terrorists' striking at the West, ISIS could quite conceivably establish themselves. They're also a lot more attractive to jyhadists for that reason - as they're representing something real to fight for. Their successes are also appealing to a number of less Islamic militants, such as Baathists and more nationalist insurgents in that Iraqi region, as they have a realistic hope of success. Especially with the prospect of Shia militants Those insurgents are fairly well established, know the area very well. Yes Jamie you might be right,but give a couple of years living under their strict muslim laws,they will soon miss all their little western toys. always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.
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elgrande

bedford 21 Aug 14 7.48pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 21 Aug 2014 6.33pm

Quote legaleagle at 20 Aug 2014 7.52pm

Quote ASCPFC at 20 Aug 2014 5.09pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 20 Aug 2014 4.57pm

Quote ASCPFC at 20 Aug 2014 4.46pm

using your logic though a huge force would be pointless as we wouldnt be able to do anything anyway.

Where would you put this state? What country should give up their teritory to house these animals? Maybe somewhere with international jurisdiction like the Antartic?

Yes a lot of these people would melt away but as with Pol Pot (to a degree), once the fear of them is removed, the people will rise against anyone who tries to disappear.

You cannot be rational with these people. That is why we are always destined to lose unless we do something more drastic.

Edited by ASCPFC (20 Aug 2014 5.10pm)

In terms of "sealing off" the territory they already have,do we just,as a part,leave any shia, christians,apostates still located there etc to their grisly fate?

ISIS are more or less a 'national liberation movement', albeit one about the establishment of a Muslim Caliphate, their focus is primarily on the region of the Sunni North of Iraq and Eastern Syria.

Those insurgents are fairly well established, know the area very well.

Yes Jamie you might be right,but give a couple of years living under their strict muslim laws,they will soon miss all their little western toys.

always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

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hellodah 21 Aug 14 9.15pm
Quote hibbystu at 21 Aug 2014 6.29pm Can't be arsed to read the whole thread, has anyone posted the details of the Muslim peace movement in the UK condemning all these killings Surely it is hard to miss all the protest marches and declarations from the left and Muslim 'peace movements' about Islamic extremist atrocities?
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hellodah

21 Aug 14 9.15pm

Quote hibbystu at 21 Aug 2014 6.29pm

Can't be arsed to read the whole thread, has anyone posted the details of the Muslim peace movement in the UK condemning all these killings

Surely it is hard to miss all the protest marches and declarations from the left and Muslim 'peace movements' about Islamic extremist atrocities?

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 21 Aug 14 9.26pm
Quote hellodah at 21 Aug 2014 9.15pm Quote hibbystu at 21 Aug 2014 6.29pm Can't be arsed to read the whole thread, has anyone posted the details of the Muslim peace movement in the UK condemning all these killings Surely it is hard to miss all the protest marches and declarations from the left and Muslim 'peace movements' about Islamic extremist atrocities? Just like the government at the time missed all the protesting about going into Iraq.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 21 Aug 14 9.26pm

Quote hellodah at 21 Aug 2014 9.15pm

Quote hibbystu at 21 Aug 2014 6.29pm

Can't be arsed to read the whole thread, has anyone posted the details of the Muslim peace movement in the UK condemning all these killings

Surely it is hard to miss all the protest marches and declarations from the left and Muslim 'peace movements' about Islamic extremist atrocities?

Just like the government at the time missed all the protesting about going into Iraq.

Alert a moderator to this post