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jamiemartin721 Reading 17 Feb 15 12.24pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 11.28am Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Feb 2015 11.09am His nationality would be British, unless he actively changes it. Nationality is established not by self identification, but by legal international requirements of law. Whilst people might like to think of themselves as English, Welsh, Scotish, Cornish or Orky, their nationality remains British (and their rights and expectations are defined by this nationality). English, isn't really a nationality, anymore than Scottish or Welsh, the union really makes those concepts largely irrelevant. People use these notions for a number of reasons of self identity and empowerment, but the reality is that they're no more significant than saying you are a Berkshirite, or Hampshirian - They're descriptive terms of self. Nationality come from the word nation. Britain is not a nation it is the result of an agreement between nations to work together under (until recently) a similar rule set. The nations of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland definitely do exist. As for you dismissing these as concepts....That's irrelevant. The whole concept of nations itself is a concept and being British is no more real than being English or anything else. It is related to attachments to concepts of shared culture and community and sometimes language that people chose or wish to be associated with. It also describes and gives an identity for economic/political/military groups to work under. I think you find ways to knock it Jamie because of an apparent distaste for identity because you don't feel it enough yourself. If that is right isn't that rather ignoring the reality that pretty much all the opportunities you have had and gained from are due to the nation you've been raised in......Which wouldn't exist without an identity as a collective means to pull it together. I'm not really knocking it, but pointing out that the nationality of the Union, is British, which is a shared collective, established in laws and rights. You hold a British Passport, and experience rights of nationality outside the nation as someone who is British. That remains the consistent shared factor, which even the people who are in dissent about nationality, accept, those rights and privillages established as a British citizen. Individual nationalism is a discourse about British and what it means, to smaller collective identities that comprise British identity. When we talk about English nationalism and nationality, its really a series of discourses about being British, and how we identify to that collective and the resolution of these discourses end up defining the future of being British. For example, Scottish independence, is not about Scottish nationalism, its about being British, which is why so many pro-English nationalists, were so anti-Scottish independence - Despite a shared common concept. This is neither a negative or positive thing, but we talk about being English, we're really engaged in a discourse about how we relate to being British. Me too, even though I take a stance that rejects national identity as being meaningless, that is itself engaging in a discourse in which the primacy concept about being British. I can't help but be English, British, Berkshirian, Oxfords***e, a Ding (someone from Reading) etc because all of these are factors in my existence. To draw the line at England, is simply a popular opinion about what is important, you could equally say the North vs the South, or East vs West vs SE - All of them are equally valid geographical divisions - Its just that nation level holds a popular 'romantic' sway. I suspect, somewhat sadly, its also about trying to establish and re-establish power balances between national identities (i.e Independence of Scotland is as much about establishing Scottish Power in relation to the UK as high minded ideals of independence). So even someone who says 'they aren't English' is engaged in a nationalist discourse and identity, because to reject something, is still by definition an association. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 17 Feb 15 12.24pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 11.28am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Feb 2015 11.09am

His nationality would be British, unless he actively changes it. Nationality is established not by self identification, but by legal international requirements of law. Whilst people might like to think of themselves as English, Welsh, Scotish, Cornish or Orky, their nationality remains British (and their rights and expectations are defined by this nationality).

English, isn't really a nationality, anymore than Scottish or Welsh, the union really makes those concepts largely irrelevant. People use these notions for a number of reasons of self identity and empowerment, but the reality is that they're no more significant than saying you are a Berkshirite, or Hampshirian - They're descriptive terms of self.

Nationality come from the word nation. Britain is not a nation it is the result of an agreement between nations to work together under (until recently) a similar rule set.

The nations of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland definitely do exist.

As for you dismissing these as concepts....That's irrelevant. The whole concept of nations itself is a concept and being British is no more real than being English or anything else.

It is related to attachments to concepts of shared culture and community and sometimes language that people chose or wish to be associated with.

It also describes and gives an identity for economic/political/military groups to work under.

I think you find ways to knock it Jamie because of an apparent distaste for identity because you don't feel it enough yourself.

If that is right isn't that rather ignoring the reality that pretty much all the opportunities you have had and gained from are due to the nation you've been raised in......Which wouldn't exist without an identity as a collective means to pull it together.

I'm not really knocking it, but pointing out that the nationality of the Union, is British, which is a shared collective, established in laws and rights. You hold a British Passport, and experience rights of nationality outside the nation as someone who is British.

That remains the consistent shared factor, which even the people who are in dissent about nationality, accept, those rights and privillages established as a British citizen.

Individual nationalism is a discourse about British and what it means, to smaller collective identities that comprise British identity. When we talk about English nationalism and nationality, its really a series of discourses about being British, and how we identify to that collective and the resolution of these discourses end up defining the future of being British.

For example, Scottish independence, is not about Scottish nationalism, its about being British, which is why so many pro-English nationalists, were so anti-Scottish independence - Despite a shared common concept.

This is neither a negative or positive thing, but we talk about being English, we're really engaged in a discourse about how we relate to being British. Me too, even though I take a stance that rejects national identity as being meaningless, that is itself engaging in a discourse in which the primacy concept about being British.

I can't help but be English, British, Berkshirian, Oxfords***e, a Ding (someone from Reading) etc because all of these are factors in my existence. To draw the line at England, is simply a popular opinion about what is important, you could equally say the North vs the South, or East vs West vs SE - All of them are equally valid geographical divisions - Its just that nation level holds a popular 'romantic' sway.

I suspect, somewhat sadly, its also about trying to establish and re-establish power balances between national identities (i.e Independence of Scotland is as much about establishing Scottish Power in relation to the UK as high minded ideals of independence).

So even someone who says 'they aren't English' is engaged in a nationalist discourse and identity, because to reject something, is still by definition an association.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Stirlingsays 17 Feb 15 12.41pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Feb 2015 12.08pm I think people use the term Anglo-Saxon rather freely without as if its a simple thing. It isn't, firstly Angles and Saxon groups weren't unified or a dominant population group and the period in which they were was very limited in terms of time to supplant and establish a culture. The problem also is that the amount of England that was under Anglo Saxon sway wasn't particually dominant either, and was largely established as a ruling class elite on a pre-existing Roman Cymri culture (also those different Saxon and Angle kingdoms also warred with each other and were themselves culturally separated). Major influences, not really. Culturally the influences that survived from this period of the Dark Ages tend to be far more influenced by earlier eras. The major influences that survived tend towards being Cymri, Roman and Christian. The main influence being the introduction of Germanic language was largely stamped out by the Norman influences anyhow (Old English is probably the major Anglo-Saxon contribution). Of course, English itself is heavily influenced by Frankish German, Anglo-Saxon German and Latin). Probably the most significant contribution of the Anglo-Saxons to us is the idea of an England that the Normans took and established (which was stolen largely from the Cymri anyhow). To call ourselves Anglo-Saxon is a nonsense, as the Norman influence largely stamped out its identity and was likely far more 'intermingled' than the Angles and Saxons ever achieved with the British. However it was a convenience for the Normans, because they had the similar Germanic origins and established a legitimacy for them. The Normans thus established a notion of English, that was based on the preservation of loyal Anglo-Saxons in the South East. But large parts of England never really experienced the Anglo Saxons. If we took any term or word related to the past to describe 'English culture' any educated person could knock it or point out flaws in terms of regarding that description as a suitable one. It really isn't the point is it. It's as good a description of Englishness as any other terms for the very same reason for those who wish to use it. No one is seriously saying that the culture that a modern English person is being brought up is in any way significantly related to the original Anglo Saxon culture. Are we going to stop some Iranians calling themselves 'Persians'? No we aren't. Self identity is an essential process if nations are to actually achieve civilizations. I can't see anarchists getting us off this rock or advancing humanity much. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

17 Feb 15 12.41pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Feb 2015 12.08pm

I think people use the term Anglo-Saxon rather freely without as if its a simple thing. It isn't, firstly Angles and Saxon groups weren't unified or a dominant population group and the period in which they were was very limited in terms of time to supplant and establish a culture.

The problem also is that the amount of England that was under Anglo Saxon sway wasn't particually dominant either, and was largely established as a ruling class elite on a pre-existing Roman Cymri culture (also those different Saxon and Angle kingdoms also warred with each other and were themselves culturally separated).

Major influences, not really. Culturally the influences that survived from this period of the Dark Ages tend to be far more influenced by earlier eras. The major influences that survived tend towards being Cymri, Roman and Christian. The main influence being the introduction of Germanic language was largely stamped out by the Norman influences anyhow (Old English is probably the major Anglo-Saxon contribution). Of course, English itself is heavily influenced by Frankish German, Anglo-Saxon German and Latin).

Probably the most significant contribution of the Anglo-Saxons to us is the idea of an England that the Normans took and established (which was stolen largely from the Cymri anyhow).

To call ourselves Anglo-Saxon is a nonsense, as the Norman influence largely stamped out its identity and was likely far more 'intermingled' than the Angles and Saxons ever achieved with the British.

However it was a convenience for the Normans, because they had the similar Germanic origins and established a legitimacy for them. The Normans thus established a notion of English, that was based on the preservation of loyal Anglo-Saxons in the South East. But large parts of England never really experienced the Anglo Saxons.

If we took any term or word related to the past to describe 'English culture' any educated person could knock it or point out flaws in terms of regarding that description as a suitable one.

It really isn't the point is it.

It's as good a description of Englishness as any other terms for the very same reason for those who wish to use it.

No one is seriously saying that the culture that a modern English person is being brought up is in any way significantly related to the original Anglo Saxon culture.

Are we going to stop some Iranians calling themselves 'Persians'? No we aren't. Self identity is an essential process if nations are to actually achieve civilizations.

I can't see anarchists getting us off this rock or advancing humanity much.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Rubin 17 Feb 15 2.01pm
Quote legaleagle at 17 Feb 2015 9.32am Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 12.34am Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 12.24am Not just northern Europe old chap. We English are made of broader stock than that. The great thing about us is we're made up of peoples from all over the world, all living together on one little island. Yes, we need to make sure there are jobs and services for people who come here, and that the host community are looked after too, but to be English is to be part of, and made up of, the world. That's what makes us so great We wouldn't quite agree there Seth. To be English is to be born here.....Though I'll accept someone who wants to become English and works at adapting and accepting the norms of the majority culture can become English.....That's more than the Japanese would for example. Something tells me that we wouldn't agree on what being English means. That's ok....Tolerance is apart of the culture. Wilfried Zaha. Came to England aged 4 (Joe Strummer,for example,born in Turkey,(father born in India) and didn't come to live here until he was 9). Palace fans have chanted: "He's one of our own". Played football twice for England. Not born here,so according to Stirling, has to "work at it" to become English.Has he succeeded enough yet for you,Stirling? Edited by legaleagle (17 Feb 2015 9.38am) The thing is, is that he probably wouldn't be able to come here now, directly because of European open door immigration. Apparently we've only let 90 refugees in from Syria. Would this be the case if the population hadn't grown by 5 million since 2001?
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Rubin

17 Feb 15 2.01pm

Quote legaleagle at 17 Feb 2015 9.32am

Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 12.34am

Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 12.24am

Not just northern Europe old chap. We English are made of broader stock than that. The great thing about us is we're made up of peoples from all over the world, all living together on one little island.

Yes, we need to make sure there are jobs and services for people who come here, and that the host community are looked after too, but to be English is to be part of, and made up of, the world.

That's what makes us so great

We wouldn't quite agree there Seth.

To be English is to be born here.....Though I'll accept someone who wants to become English and works at adapting and accepting the norms of the majority culture can become English.....That's more than the Japanese would for example.

Something tells me that we wouldn't agree on what being English means.

That's ok....Tolerance is apart of the culture.

Wilfried Zaha. Came to England aged 4 (Joe Strummer,for example,born in Turkey,(father born in India) and didn't come to live here until he was 9). Palace fans have chanted: "He's one of our own". Played football twice for England. Not born here,so according to Stirling, has to "work at it" to become English.Has he succeeded enough yet for you,Stirling?

Edited by legaleagle (17 Feb 2015 9.38am)

The thing is, is that he probably wouldn't be able to come here now, directly because of European open door immigration. Apparently we've only let 90 refugees in from Syria. Would this be the case if the population hadn't grown by 5 million since 2001?

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Stuk Top half 17 Feb 15 2.09pm
Quote nickgusset at 17 Feb 2015 12.37am Did anyone else see that Hundred days of UKIP? Wasn't very good. I hope for balance they do hundred days of Labour or Tory. Edited by nickgusset (17 Feb 2015 12.38am) Not a chance. Dramas dressed up as documentaries can f*** right off. It's already the most complained about TV show this year. Why would they need to do one for Labour or the Conservatives? We have precedent of their governments from the past. Optimistic as ever
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Stuk

Top half 17 Feb 15 2.09pm

Quote nickgusset at 17 Feb 2015 12.37am

Did anyone else see that Hundred days of UKIP? Wasn't very good. I hope for balance they do hundred days of Labour or Tory.

Edited by nickgusset (17 Feb 2015 12.38am)

Not a chance. Dramas dressed up as documentaries can f*** right off. It's already the most complained about TV show this year.

Why would they need to do one for Labour or the Conservatives? We have precedent of their governments from the past.

Optimistic as ever

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elgrande bedford 17 Feb 15 4.09pm
Quote nickgusset at 17 Feb 2015 11.11am Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Feb 2015 11.03am Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 10.37am Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 1.41am Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 12.34am Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 12.24am Not just northern Europe old chap. We English are made of broader stock than that. The great thing about us is we're made up of peoples from all over the world, all living together on one little island. Yes, we need to make sure there are jobs and services for people who come here, and that the host community are looked after too, but to be English is to be part of, and made up of, the world. That's what makes us so great We wouldn't quite agree there Seth. To be English is to be born here.....Though I'll accept someone who wants to become English and works at adapting and accepting the norms of the majority culture can become English.....That's more than the Japanese would for example. Something tells me that we wouldn't agree on what being English means. That's ok....Tolerance is apart of the culture. Boris Johnson wasn't born in England. Nor were Bradley Wiggins, George Orwell or Rudyard Kipling. I'm not sure how much "working at adapting or accepting the norms of the majority culture" any of them would have had to do. You're right though, we probably won't agree on our definitions of Englishness, and that tolerance is one of our hallmarks. Long may it continue Obviously if your parents are English or steeped in the Anglo Saxon culture than there isn't much adapting that needs to be done. However if you come from a significantly different culture and haven't been raised here it's a valid point. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2015 10.45am) There never really was that much of an Anglo-Saxon culture per se. The era of the Angles and the Saxons is largely a series of conflicting kingdoms throughout the dark ages, which were by no means a unified 'culture' (particually given that they were in contrast to the post-Roman Cymri as well as influences from the Jutes, Danes, Irish and Pictish). From the period of the collapse of Roman Britain, till the arrival of the Normans, England is really much more a series of fractured kingdoms, of which the Angles and Saxons were largely an influence the South and East of the land (and even then they were largely occupying kingdoms in which the main cultures was post-roman cymri). Although towards the end of the dark ages, the emergence of unified England is looking more and more a reality, the arrival of the Normans is really the first point post Roman Empire, that you could really start to point at a dominant English culture. A convenience has seen the Angles and Saxons as 'the dominant culture', post Rome, but its basis was never really established as a unified 'identity' it was far to fractured to really call it a country. Even by that point, the 7th century Christianisation is probably much more a factor of cultural unification than the Angles or Saxons. Its only really as late as the 8th century that the Germanic people see themselves as separate from the Angles, Saxons, Franks etc. At best I'd say that the idea of an Anglo-Saxon 'nation' of England has about 100-150 years, before the arrival of the Normans, who really re-established what would become England. Largely a result of this conquest is the adoption of the Anglo-Saxon identity as Englishry. Prior to that, I think you really have to go back to the Roman Britain. And what did they ever do for us? Very good Nick always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.
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elgrande

bedford 17 Feb 15 4.09pm

Quote nickgusset at 17 Feb 2015 11.11am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Feb 2015 11.03am

Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 10.37am

Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 1.41am

Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 12.34am

Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 12.24am

Yes, we need to make sure there are jobs and services for people who come here, and that the host community are looked after too, but to be English is to be part of, and made up of, the world.

That's what makes us so great

We wouldn't quite agree there Seth.

Something tells me that we wouldn't agree on what being English means.

That's ok....Tolerance is apart of the culture.

Boris Johnson wasn't born in England. Nor were Bradley Wiggins, George Orwell or Rudyard Kipling. I'm not sure how much "working at adapting or accepting the norms of the majority culture" any of them would have had to do.

You're right though, we probably won't agree on our definitions of Englishness, and that tolerance is one of our hallmarks. Long may it continue

Obviously if your parents are English or steeped in the Anglo Saxon culture than there isn't much adapting that needs to be done.

However if you come from a significantly different culture and haven't been raised here it's a valid point.

Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2015 10.45am)

There never really was that much of an Anglo-Saxon culture per se. The era of the Angles and the Saxons is largely a series of conflicting kingdoms throughout the dark ages, which were by no means a unified 'culture' (particually given that they were in contrast to the post-Roman Cymri as well as influences from the Jutes, Danes, Irish and Pictish).

From the period of the collapse of Roman Britain, till the arrival of the Normans, England is really much more a series of fractured kingdoms, of which the Angles and Saxons were largely an influence the South and East of the land (and even then they were largely occupying kingdoms in which the main cultures was post-roman cymri).

Although towards the end of the dark ages, the emergence of unified England is looking more and more a reality, the arrival of the Normans is really the first point post Roman Empire, that you could really start to point at a dominant English culture.

A convenience has seen the Angles and Saxons as 'the dominant culture', post Rome, but its basis was never really established as a unified 'identity' it was far to fractured to really call it a country.

Even by that point, the 7th century Christianisation is probably much more a factor of cultural unification than the Angles or Saxons. Its only really as late as the 8th century that the Germanic people see themselves as separate from the Angles, Saxons, Franks etc.

At best I'd say that the idea of an Anglo-Saxon 'nation' of England has about 100-150 years, before the arrival of the Normans, who really re-established what would become England. Largely a result of this conquest is the adoption of the Anglo-Saxon identity as Englishry.

Prior to that, I think you really have to go back to the Roman Britain.

And what did they ever do for us?

Very good Nick

always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

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dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 17 Feb 15 4.54pm
I don't think its about nationality or patriotism. I believe It's about what people conceive as fare. Example, Immigrant terrorist rabble rousers get free 4 bedroom house, and brings entire family over and lives very nice and comfy thanks very much off the state, meanwhile ex soldiers are living rough on the streets without a pot to piss. I know that’s an extreme and a simplistic view however it is factually correct, and is happening right now. The right wing driven media make big stories of things like this predominately to sell papers, but also to get votes for the Tories, however the massive gapping floor in the plan, is that the Tories are "Tory lite" and are no more right wing than nu Labour, all this sabre rattling about young people not getting dole money is all a load of electioneering codswallop. The electorate in places where there is high Immigration know this to be the case. So they evisage UKIP as someone who will stand up for them and WILL vote for them. Personally I will emigrate if Farage gets anywhere near No.10, but I wouldn’t be surprised if at the next election a coalition was formed with the Torys and UKIP. And if that happens, basically, f*** that I'm off. "It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"
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dannyh

wherever I lay my hat....... 17 Feb 15 4.54pm

I don't think its about nationality or patriotism. I believe It's about what people conceive as fare. Example, Immigrant terrorist rabble rousers get free 4 bedroom house, and brings entire family over and lives very nice and comfy thanks very much off the state, meanwhile ex soldiers are living rough on the streets without a pot to piss.

I know that’s an extreme and a simplistic view however it is factually correct, and is happening right now. The right wing driven media make big stories of things like this predominately to sell papers, but also to get votes for the Tories, however the massive gapping floor in the plan, is that the Tories are "Tory lite" and are no more right wing than nu Labour, all this sabre rattling about young people not getting dole money is all a load of electioneering codswallop. The electorate in places where there is high Immigration know this to be the case.

So they evisage UKIP as someone who will stand up for them and WILL vote for them. Personally I will emigrate if Farage gets anywhere near No.10, but I wouldn’t be surprised if at the next election a coalition was formed with the Torys and UKIP.

And if that happens, basically, f*** that
I'm off.

"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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Stirlingsays 17 Feb 15 8.23pm
Quote dannyh at 17 Feb 2015 4.54pm And if that happens, basically, f*** that I'm off. Where you off to? 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

17 Feb 15 8.23pm

Quote dannyh at 17 Feb 2015 4.54pm

And if that happens, basically, f*** that
I'm off.

Where you off to?

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Kermit8 Hevon 17 Feb 15 9.56pm
Quote dannyh at 17 Feb 2015 4.54pm I don't think its about nationality or patriotism. I believe It's about what people conceive as fare. Example, Immigrant terrorist rabble rousers get free 4 bedroom house, and brings entire family over and lives very nice and comfy thanks very much off the state, meanwhile ex soldiers are living rough on the streets without a pot to piss. I know that’s an extreme and a simplistic view however it is factually correct, and is happening right now. The right wing driven media make big stories of things like this predominately to sell papers, but also to get votes for the Tories, however the massive gapping floor in the plan, is that the Tories are "Tory lite" and are no more right wing than nu Labour, all this sabre rattling about young people not getting dole money is all a load of electioneering codswallop. The electorate in places where there is high Immigration know this to be the case. So they evisage UKIP as someone who will stand up for them and WILL vote for them. Personally I will emigrate if Farage gets anywhere near No.10, but I wouldn’t be surprised if at the next election a coalition was formed with the Torys and UKIP. And if that happens, basically, f*** that I'm off. If ever anyone needed reminding what duplicitous cvnts run this country and popular media there you have it. "Heroes" to them one minute and "not worthy of their time or consideration" the next. When it suits them, sir. Horrible, despicable types run this place and have for decades. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 17 Feb 15 9.56pm

Quote dannyh at 17 Feb 2015 4.54pm

I don't think its about nationality or patriotism. I believe It's about what people conceive as fare. Example, Immigrant terrorist rabble rousers get free 4 bedroom house, and brings entire family over and lives very nice and comfy thanks very much off the state, meanwhile ex soldiers are living rough on the streets without a pot to piss.

And if that happens, basically, f*** that
I'm off.

If ever anyone needed reminding what duplicitous cvnts run this country and popular media there you have it.

"Heroes" to them one minute and "not worthy of their time or consideration" the next. When it suits them, sir.

Horrible, despicable types run this place and have for decades.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Stirlingsays 17 Feb 15 10.09pm
Quote Kermit8 at 17 Feb 2015 9.56pm Horrible, despicable types run this place and have for decades. And every other place on the planet...Since the beginning of humanity....Tis the nature of power. Power corrupts. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2015 10.09pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

17 Feb 15 10.09pm

Quote Kermit8 at 17 Feb 2015 9.56pm

Horrible, despicable types run this place and have for decades.

And every other place on the planet...Since the beginning of humanity....Tis the nature of power.

Power corrupts.

Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2015 10.09pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 17 Feb 15 10.13pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 10.09pm Quote Kermit8 at 17 Feb 2015 9.56pm Horrible, despicable types run this place and have for decades. And every other place on the planet...Since the beginning of humanity....Tis the nature of power. Power corrupts. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2015 10.09pm) And we let it carry on...
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 17 Feb 15 10.13pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 10.09pm

Quote Kermit8 at 17 Feb 2015 9.56pm

Horrible, despicable types run this place and have for decades.

And every other place on the planet...Since the beginning of humanity....Tis the nature of power.

Power corrupts.

Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2015 10.09pm)

And we let it carry on...

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legaleagle 17 Feb 15 10.18pm
And not something that can simplistically be attributed to immigration/immigrants as if that is a cause,just like so many other social and economic ills that the duplicitous ones encourage people to blame immigrants and immigration for...duplicitous/scapegoating/divide and rule...down through the ages. Not aware there were EU immigrants coming here in the 1920's.BBC History Magazine website,November 2013: "There were other sides to Armistice Day. Postwar Britain was not a “land fit for heroes”. It was a land of unemployment, poor housing and unrecognised pension claims. Some ex-servicemen grew tired of perpetual homage to the dead veteran when surviving ones were receiving such little help. In 1921 disaffected former soldiers disturbed the commemorations at the Cenotaph. And this was no one-off: unemployed ex-servicemen were to demonstrate at armistice ceremonies throughout the 1920s. The Ex-Officers’ Association even began referring to Armistice Day as ‘Obligation Day’, when people had a ‘Duty of Remembrance’ to ex-servicemen in need."
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legaleagle

17 Feb 15 10.18pm

And not something that can simplistically be attributed to immigration/immigrants as if that is a cause,just like so many other social and economic ills that the duplicitous ones encourage people to blame immigrants and immigration for...duplicitous/scapegoating/divide and rule...down through the ages.

Not aware there were EU immigrants coming here in the 1920's.BBC History Magazine website,November 2013:

"There were other sides to Armistice Day. Postwar Britain was not a “land fit for heroes”. It was a land of unemployment, poor housing and unrecognised pension claims. Some ex-servicemen grew tired of perpetual homage to the dead veteran when surviving ones were receiving such little help. In 1921 disaffected former soldiers disturbed the commemorations at the Cenotaph. And this was no one-off: unemployed ex-servicemen were to demonstrate at armistice ceremonies throughout the 1920s. The Ex-Officers’ Association even began referring to Armistice Day as ‘Obligation Day’, when people had a ‘Duty of Remembrance’ to ex-servicemen in need."

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Stirlingsays 17 Feb 15 11.07pm
Quote legaleagle at 17 Feb 2015 10.18pm And not something that can simplistically be attributed to immigration/immigrants as if that is a cause,just like so many other social and economic ills that the duplicitous ones encourage people to blame immigrants and immigration for...duplicitous/scapegoating/divide and rule...down through the ages. Not aware there were EU immigrants coming here in the 1920's.BBC History Magazine website,November 2013: "There were other sides to Armistice Day. Postwar Britain was not a “land fit for heroes”. It was a land of unemployment, poor housing and unrecognised pension claims. Some ex-servicemen grew tired of perpetual homage to the dead veteran when surviving ones were receiving such little help. In 1921 disaffected former soldiers disturbed the commemorations at the Cenotaph. And this was no one-off: unemployed ex-servicemen were to demonstrate at armistice ceremonies throughout the 1920s. The Ex-Officers’ Association even began referring to Armistice Day as ‘Obligation Day’, when people had a ‘Duty of Remembrance’ to ex-servicemen in need." Why do you demonise people's right to protest against immigration? Of course immigration has an impact on housing and jobs. Are you implying that people were wrong to protest in the past? Who is to say that? If people think immigration it is too high....And statistically is it far higher than at any period of time in this country's history then that is their valid point of view. Who are you to say that means UKIP are blaming immigrants themselves....I'm sure there are extremists jumping on the bandwagon just like the militants did with Labour but it isn't the party message. I'm a UKIP suppoerter and I've made it bloody clear on here that an immigrant seeks to improve their life and no one can blame them for it. Yet here again you sport the same old colours connecting protest again the numbers as a protest again actual immigrants. Lets say it once again shall we. UKIP will not stop immigrants coming into the UK it will only reduce the numbers. People have a right to vote for and voice which kind of country they wish to live in.....Just as you do. However it's scary just how often opponents are willing to misrepresent the message. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2015 11.09pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

17 Feb 15 11.07pm

Quote legaleagle at 17 Feb 2015 10.18pm

Not aware there were EU immigrants coming here in the 1920's.BBC History Magazine website,November 2013:

Why do you demonise people's right to protest against immigration?

Of course immigration has an impact on housing and jobs.

Are you implying that people were wrong to protest in the past? Who is to say that?

If people think immigration it is too high....And statistically is it far higher than at any period of time in this country's history then that is their valid point of view. Who are you to say that means UKIP are blaming immigrants themselves....I'm sure there are extremists jumping on the bandwagon just like the militants did with Labour but it isn't the party message.

I'm a UKIP suppoerter and I've made it bloody clear on here that an immigrant seeks to improve their life and no one can blame them for it.

Yet here again you sport the same old colours connecting protest again the numbers as a protest again actual immigrants.

Lets say it once again shall we. UKIP will not stop immigrants coming into the UK it will only reduce the numbers.

People have a right to vote for and voice which kind of country they wish to live in.....Just as you do.

However it's scary just how often opponents are willing to misrepresent the message.

Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2015 11.09pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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