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ukip (LOCKED)
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 Stirlingsays  17 Feb 15 12.39am |
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Quote nickgusset at 17 Feb 2015 12.38am
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 12.36am
Quote nickgusset at 17 Feb 2015 12.33am
I'm the same age as you. Probably too late now. I don't think my kids will appreciate the move either.
I've always wanted to go to Japan though....One day. Blimey Nick......You're ancient.
I must start using comic sans.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Seth  On a pale blue dot 17 Feb 15 1.41am |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 12.34am
Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 12.24am
Not just northern Europe old chap. We English are made of broader stock than that. The great thing about us is we're made up of peoples from all over the world, all living together on one little island. Yes, we need to make sure there are jobs and services for people who come here, and that the host community are looked after too, but to be English is to be part of, and made up of, the world. That's what makes us so great
To be English is to be born here.....Though I'll accept someone who wants to become English and works at adapting and accepting the norms of the majority culture can become English.....That's more than the Japanese would for example. Something tells me that we wouldn't agree on what being English means. That's ok....Tolerance is apart of the culture.
You're right though, we probably won't agree on our definitions of Englishness, and that tolerance is one of our hallmarks. Long may it continue
"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down" |
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| legaleagle 17 Feb 15 9.32am |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 12.34am
Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 12.24am
Not just northern Europe old chap. We English are made of broader stock than that. The great thing about us is we're made up of peoples from all over the world, all living together on one little island. Yes, we need to make sure there are jobs and services for people who come here, and that the host community are looked after too, but to be English is to be part of, and made up of, the world. That's what makes us so great
To be English is to be born here.....Though I'll accept someone who wants to become English and works at adapting and accepting the norms of the majority culture can become English.....That's more than the Japanese would for example. Something tells me that we wouldn't agree on what being English means. That's ok....Tolerance is apart of the culture.
Edited by legaleagle (17 Feb 2015 9.38am)
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 17 Feb 15 10.18am |
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Is this you?
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| Stirlingsays 17 Feb 15 10.37am |
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Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 1.41am
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 12.34am
Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 12.24am
Not just northern Europe old chap. We English are made of broader stock than that. The great thing about us is we're made up of peoples from all over the world, all living together on one little island. Yes, we need to make sure there are jobs and services for people who come here, and that the host community are looked after too, but to be English is to be part of, and made up of, the world. That's what makes us so great
To be English is to be born here.....Though I'll accept someone who wants to become English and works at adapting and accepting the norms of the majority culture can become English.....That's more than the Japanese would for example. Something tells me that we wouldn't agree on what being English means. That's ok....Tolerance is apart of the culture.
You're right though, we probably won't agree on our definitions of Englishness, and that tolerance is one of our hallmarks. Long may it continue
However if you come from a significantly different culture and haven't been raised here it's a valid point. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2015 10.45am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 17 Feb 15 10.45am |
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Quote legaleagle at 17 Feb 2015 9.32am
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 12.34am
Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 12.24am
Not just northern Europe old chap. We English are made of broader stock than that. The great thing about us is we're made up of peoples from all over the world, all living together on one little island. Yes, we need to make sure there are jobs and services for people who come here, and that the host community are looked after too, but to be English is to be part of, and made up of, the world. That's what makes us so great
To be English is to be born here.....Though I'll accept someone who wants to become English and works at adapting and accepting the norms of the majority culture can become English.....That's more than the Japanese would for example. Something tells me that we wouldn't agree on what being English means. That's ok....Tolerance is apart of the culture.
Edited by legaleagle (17 Feb 2015 9.38am) Does Zaha consider himself English? I don't know....It's a question for him. I know that he's also qualified to play for the Ivory Coast and that according to comments in the past considered it. He comes across as English to me because he's been raised in the culture. Then again, I've met people even born here who have told me they aren't English (well done multiculturalism)....So really Zaha's nationality is down to how he feels.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 17 Feb 15 11.03am |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 10.37am
Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 1.41am
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 12.34am
Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 12.24am
Not just northern Europe old chap. We English are made of broader stock than that. The great thing about us is we're made up of peoples from all over the world, all living together on one little island. Yes, we need to make sure there are jobs and services for people who come here, and that the host community are looked after too, but to be English is to be part of, and made up of, the world. That's what makes us so great
To be English is to be born here.....Though I'll accept someone who wants to become English and works at adapting and accepting the norms of the majority culture can become English.....That's more than the Japanese would for example. Something tells me that we wouldn't agree on what being English means. That's ok....Tolerance is apart of the culture.
You're right though, we probably won't agree on our definitions of Englishness, and that tolerance is one of our hallmarks. Long may it continue
However if you come from a significantly different culture and haven't been raised here it's a valid point. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2015 10.45am) There never really was that much of an Anglo-Saxon culture per se. The era of the Angles and the Saxons is largely a series of conflicting kingdoms throughout the dark ages, which were by no means a unified 'culture' (particually given that they were in contrast to the post-Roman Cymri as well as influences from the Jutes, Danes, Irish and Pictish). From the period of the collapse of Roman Britain, till the arrival of the Normans, England is really much more a series of fractured kingdoms, of which the Angles and Saxons were largely an influence the South and East of the land (and even then they were largely occupying kingdoms in which the main cultures was post-roman cymri). Although towards the end of the dark ages, the emergence of unified England is looking more and more a reality, the arrival of the Normans is really the first point post Roman Empire, that you could really start to point at a dominant English culture. A convenience has seen the Angles and Saxons as 'the dominant culture', post Rome, but its basis was never really established as a unified 'identity' it was far to fractured to really call it a country. Even by that point, the 7th century Christianisation is probably much more a factor of cultural unification than the Angles or Saxons. Its only really as late as the 8th century that the Germanic people see themselves as separate from the Angles, Saxons, Franks etc. At best I'd say that the idea of an Anglo-Saxon 'nation' of England has about 100-150 years, before the arrival of the Normans, who really re-established what would become England. Largely a result of this conquest is the adoption of the Anglo-Saxon identity as Englishry. Prior to that, I think you really have to go back to the Roman Britain.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 17 Feb 15 11.09am |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 10.45am
Quote legaleagle at 17 Feb 2015 9.32am
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 12.34am
Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 12.24am
Not just northern Europe old chap. We English are made of broader stock than that. The great thing about us is we're made up of peoples from all over the world, all living together on one little island. Yes, we need to make sure there are jobs and services for people who come here, and that the host community are looked after too, but to be English is to be part of, and made up of, the world. That's what makes us so great
To be English is to be born here.....Though I'll accept someone who wants to become English and works at adapting and accepting the norms of the majority culture can become English.....That's more than the Japanese would for example. Something tells me that we wouldn't agree on what being English means. That's ok....Tolerance is apart of the culture.
Edited by legaleagle (17 Feb 2015 9.38am) Does Zaha consider himself English? I don't know....It's a question for him. I know that he's also qualified to play for the Ivory Coast and that according to comments in the past considered it. He comes across as English to me because he's been raised in the culture. Then again, I've met people even born here who have told me they aren't English (well done multiculturalism)....So really Zaha's nationality is down to how he feels.
His nationality would be British, unless he actively changes it. Nationality is established not by self identification, but by legal international requirements of law. Whilst people might like to think of themselves as English, Welsh, Scotish, Cornish or Orky, their nationality remains British (and their rights and expectations are defined by this nationality). English, isn't really a nationality, anymore than Scottish or Welsh, the union really makes those concepts largely irrelevant. People use these notions for a number of reasons of self identity and empowerment, but the reality is that they're no more significant than saying you are a Berkshirite, or Hampshirian - They're descriptive terms of self.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 17 Feb 15 11.11am |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Feb 2015 11.03am
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 10.37am
Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 1.41am
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 12.34am
Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 12.24am
Not just northern Europe old chap. We English are made of broader stock than that. The great thing about us is we're made up of peoples from all over the world, all living together on one little island. Yes, we need to make sure there are jobs and services for people who come here, and that the host community are looked after too, but to be English is to be part of, and made up of, the world. That's what makes us so great
To be English is to be born here.....Though I'll accept someone who wants to become English and works at adapting and accepting the norms of the majority culture can become English.....That's more than the Japanese would for example. Something tells me that we wouldn't agree on what being English means. That's ok....Tolerance is apart of the culture.
You're right though, we probably won't agree on our definitions of Englishness, and that tolerance is one of our hallmarks. Long may it continue
However if you come from a significantly different culture and haven't been raised here it's a valid point. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2015 10.45am) There never really was that much of an Anglo-Saxon culture per se. The era of the Angles and the Saxons is largely a series of conflicting kingdoms throughout the dark ages, which were by no means a unified 'culture' (particually given that they were in contrast to the post-Roman Cymri as well as influences from the Jutes, Danes, Irish and Pictish). From the period of the collapse of Roman Britain, till the arrival of the Normans, England is really much more a series of fractured kingdoms, of which the Angles and Saxons were largely an influence the South and East of the land (and even then they were largely occupying kingdoms in which the main cultures was post-roman cymri). Although towards the end of the dark ages, the emergence of unified England is looking more and more a reality, the arrival of the Normans is really the first point post Roman Empire, that you could really start to point at a dominant English culture. A convenience has seen the Angles and Saxons as 'the dominant culture', post Rome, but its basis was never really established as a unified 'identity' it was far to fractured to really call it a country. Even by that point, the 7th century Christianisation is probably much more a factor of cultural unification than the Angles or Saxons. Its only really as late as the 8th century that the Germanic people see themselves as separate from the Angles, Saxons, Franks etc. At best I'd say that the idea of an Anglo-Saxon 'nation' of England has about 100-150 years, before the arrival of the Normans, who really re-established what would become England. Largely a result of this conquest is the adoption of the Anglo-Saxon identity as Englishry. Prior to that, I think you really have to go back to the Roman Britain. And what did they ever do for us?
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| Stirlingsays 17 Feb 15 11.17am |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Feb 2015 11.03am
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 10.37am
Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 1.41am
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 12.34am
Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 12.24am
Not just northern Europe old chap. We English are made of broader stock than that. The great thing about us is we're made up of peoples from all over the world, all living together on one little island. Yes, we need to make sure there are jobs and services for people who come here, and that the host community are looked after too, but to be English is to be part of, and made up of, the world. That's what makes us so great
To be English is to be born here.....Though I'll accept someone who wants to become English and works at adapting and accepting the norms of the majority culture can become English.....That's more than the Japanese would for example. Something tells me that we wouldn't agree on what being English means. That's ok....Tolerance is apart of the culture.
You're right though, we probably won't agree on our definitions of Englishness, and that tolerance is one of our hallmarks. Long may it continue
However if you come from a significantly different culture and haven't been raised here it's a valid point. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2015 10.45am) There never really was that much of an Anglo-Saxon culture per se. The era of the Angles and the Saxons is largely a series of conflicting kingdoms throughout the dark ages, which were by no means a unified 'culture' (particually given that they were in contrast to the post-Roman Cymri as well as influences from the Jutes, Danes, Irish and Pictish). From the period of the collapse of Roman Britain, till the arrival of the Normans, England is really much more a series of fractured kingdoms, of which the Angles and Saxons were largely an influence the South and East of the land (and even then they were largely occupying kingdoms in which the main cultures was post-roman cymri). Although towards the end of the dark ages, the emergence of unified England is looking more and more a reality, the arrival of the Normans is really the first point post Roman Empire, that you could really start to point at a dominant English culture. A convenience has seen the Angles and Saxons as 'the dominant culture', post Rome, but its basis was never really established as a unified 'identity' it was far to fractured to really call it a country. Even by that point, the 7th century Christianisation is probably much more a factor of cultural unification than the Angles or Saxons. Its only really as late as the 8th century that the Germanic people see themselves as separate from the Angles, Saxons, Franks etc. At best I'd say that the idea of an Anglo-Saxon 'nation' of England has about 100-150 years, before the arrival of the Normans, who really re-established what would become England. Largely a result of this conquest is the adoption of the Anglo-Saxon identity as Englishry. Prior to that, I think you really have to go back to the Roman Britain. That's not accurate. There was much inter-marriage between both cultures and over the preceding centuries a gradual merging into a single identity (along with other influences) that wasn't disrupted until the Normans. As you well know Jamie it's a term that describes a certain perception of English culture.....It's not based upon a tangible.....It is simply a term that points out two major influences in ancient English culture. Me thinks you're being mischievous. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2015 11.29am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 17 Feb 15 11.28am |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Feb 2015 11.09am
His nationality would be British, unless he actively changes it. Nationality is established not by self identification, but by legal international requirements of law. Whilst people might like to think of themselves as English, Welsh, Scotish, Cornish or Orky, their nationality remains British (and their rights and expectations are defined by this nationality). English, isn't really a nationality, anymore than Scottish or Welsh, the union really makes those concepts largely irrelevant. People use these notions for a number of reasons of self identity and empowerment, but the reality is that they're no more significant than saying you are a Berkshirite, or Hampshirian - They're descriptive terms of self.
The nations of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland definitely do exist. As for you dismissing these as concepts....That's irrelevant. The whole concept of nations itself is a concept and being British is no more real than being English or anything else. It is related to attachments to concepts of shared culture and community and sometimes language that people chose or wish to be associated with. It also describes and gives an identity for economic/political/military groups to work under. I think you find ways to knock it Jamie because of an apparent distaste for identity because you don't feel it enough yourself. If that is right isn't that rather ignoring the reality that pretty much all the opportunities you have had and gained from are due to the nation you've been raised in......Which wouldn't exist without an identity as a collective means to pull it together.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 17 Feb 15 12.08pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 11.17am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Feb 2015 11.03am
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 10.37am
Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 1.41am
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 12.34am
Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 12.24am
Not just northern Europe old chap. We English are made of broader stock than that. The great thing about us is we're made up of peoples from all over the world, all living together on one little island. Yes, we need to make sure there are jobs and services for people who come here, and that the host community are looked after too, but to be English is to be part of, and made up of, the world. That's what makes us so great
To be English is to be born here.....Though I'll accept someone who wants to become English and works at adapting and accepting the norms of the majority culture can become English.....That's more than the Japanese would for example. Something tells me that we wouldn't agree on what being English means. That's ok....Tolerance is apart of the culture.
You're right though, we probably won't agree on our definitions of Englishness, and that tolerance is one of our hallmarks. Long may it continue
However if you come from a significantly different culture and haven't been raised here it's a valid point. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2015 10.45am) There never really was that much of an Anglo-Saxon culture per se. The era of the Angles and the Saxons is largely a series of conflicting kingdoms throughout the dark ages, which were by no means a unified 'culture' (particually given that they were in contrast to the post-Roman Cymri as well as influences from the Jutes, Danes, Irish and Pictish). From the period of the collapse of Roman Britain, till the arrival of the Normans, England is really much more a series of fractured kingdoms, of which the Angles and Saxons were largely an influence the South and East of the land (and even then they were largely occupying kingdoms in which the main cultures was post-roman cymri). Although towards the end of the dark ages, the emergence of unified England is looking more and more a reality, the arrival of the Normans is really the first point post Roman Empire, that you could really start to point at a dominant English culture. A convenience has seen the Angles and Saxons as 'the dominant culture', post Rome, but its basis was never really established as a unified 'identity' it was far to fractured to really call it a country. Even by that point, the 7th century Christianisation is probably much more a factor of cultural unification than the Angles or Saxons. Its only really as late as the 8th century that the Germanic people see themselves as separate from the Angles, Saxons, Franks etc. At best I'd say that the idea of an Anglo-Saxon 'nation' of England has about 100-150 years, before the arrival of the Normans, who really re-established what would become England. Largely a result of this conquest is the adoption of the Anglo-Saxon identity as Englishry. Prior to that, I think you really have to go back to the Roman Britain. That's not accurate. There was much inter-marriage between both cultures and over the preceding centuries a gradual merging into a single identity (along with other influences) that wasn't disrupted until the Normans. As you well know Jamie it's a term that describes a certain perception of English culture.....It's not based upon a tangible.....It is simply a term that points out two major influences in ancient English culture. Me thinks you're being mischievous. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2015 11.29am) I think people use the term Anglo-Saxon rather freely without as if its a simple thing. It isn't, firstly Angles and Saxon groups weren't unified or a dominant population group and the period in which they were was very limited in terms of time to supplant and establish a culture. The problem also is that the amount of England that was under Anglo Saxon sway wasn't particually dominant either, and was largely established as a ruling class elite on a pre-existing Roman Cymri culture (also those different Saxon and Angle kingdoms also warred with each other and were themselves culturally separated). Major influences, not really. Culturally the influences that survived from this period of the Dark Ages tend to be far more influenced by earlier eras. The major influences that survived tend towards being Cymri, Roman and Christian. The main influence being the introduction of Germanic language was largely stamped out by the Norman influences anyhow (Old English is probably the major Anglo-Saxon contribution). Of course, English itself is heavily influenced by Frankish German, Anglo-Saxon German and Latin). Probably the most significant contribution of the Anglo-Saxons to us is the idea of an England that the Normans took and established (which was stolen largely from the Cymri anyhow). To call ourselves Anglo-Saxon is a nonsense, as the Norman influence largely stamped out its identity and was likely far more 'intermingled' than the Angles and Saxons ever achieved with the British. However it was a convenience for the Normans, because they had the similar Germanic origins and established a legitimacy for them. The Normans thus established a notion of English, that was based on the preservation of loyal Anglo-Saxons in the South East. But large parts of England never really experienced the Anglo Saxons.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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