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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 05 Apr 24 2.14pm | |
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Originally posted by NJ CLOCKTOWER
Well, if you have any solutions. Let the world know. I certainly haven't. And, it's not like Palestine hasn't been given the chance of peace. They have literally rejected every peace deal since 1948. Hamas, has also said openly that, it wants to eradicate israel. That's basically calling for genocide. I say enough is enough. If you give them any more leeway. The violence will continue. [Link]
You're back to telling me about Hamas for some reason. As stated, I do not support Hamas - my position is simply that I want the killing of civilians to end. To that end, I focus more attention towards the side now doing the overwhelming majority (if not all) of the killing of civilians. I also hold an elected military superpower who have signed the Geneva convention to a higher standard of conduct, than I do a terrorist organisation.
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Behind Enemy Lines Sussex 05 Apr 24 2.42pm | |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
During the war in Afghanistan from 2001-2021, the 'Costs of War Project' estimate that 46,319 civilians were killed. That's in a 20-year campaign. Israel have already massacred at least half that total, probably a lot more, in 6 months. Do you see the difference? Yes, I can see the difference. I also see the difference in the size of the territories in both instances; one being far more civilian concentrated than the other. But your point is valid as far as numbers and timescales are involved although I would add that the allies were probably partially a peace keeping force during those twenty years, particularly in the later years.
hats off to palace, they were always gonna be louder, and hate to say it but they were impressive ALL bouncing and singing. |
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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 05 Apr 24 2.52pm | |
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Originally posted by Behind Enemy Lines
Yes, I can see the difference. I also see the difference in the size of the territories in both instances; one being far more civilian concentrated than the other. But your point is valid as far as numbers and timescales are involved although I would add that the allies were probably partially a peace keeping force during those twenty years, particularly in the later years. I think an ambition of eradicating the enemy in this context is pointless - you don’t defeat an ideology on the battlefield and the current course of action does nothing but radicalise a whole new generation of Palestinians, many of whom probably end up in Europe as a result of Israel’s ongoing displacement.
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Behind Enemy Lines Sussex 05 Apr 24 3.01pm | |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
I think an ambition of eradicating the enemy in this context is pointless - you don’t defeat an ideology on the battlefield and the current course of action does nothing but radicalise a whole new generation of Palestinians, many of whom probably end up in Europe as a result of Israel’s ongoing displacement. You are right, defeating an ideology is difficult, hence the objections on this forum by some posters that question the trend to import that ideology into the UK. But the multicultural experiment must continue.
hats off to palace, they were always gonna be louder, and hate to say it but they were impressive ALL bouncing and singing. |
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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 05 Apr 24 3.14pm | |
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Originally posted by Behind Enemy Lines
You are right, defeating an ideology is difficult, hence the objections on this forum by some posters that question the trend to import that ideology into the UK. But the multicultural experiment must continue. To be clear, I am referring to the ideology of Hamas, not Islam as a whole.
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silvertop Portishead 05 Apr 24 4.46pm | |
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Originally posted by Behind Enemy Lines
Yes, I can see the difference. I also see the difference in the size of the territories in both instances; one being far more civilian concentrated than the other. But your point is valid as far as numbers and timescales are involved although I would add that the allies were probably partially a peace keeping force during those twenty years, particularly in the later years. You might want to delve a little deeper into your history books. Try, for instance, looking at the Wiki pages on the 30 Year War. One positive policy introduced by Wellington was bring your own food. Looters and rapists from his own numbers were summarily executed. That was a revolutionary change. Prior to that, armies were fed on what they could plunder from the locality. This was policy ordered by the generals, not some indiscipline of ragged squaddies. Given the precarious, marginal existence at that time, this usually meant that anyone within a 20 mile radius of the battle or who were unlucky enough to live en route for the marching heroes, had all their meagre provisions taken, daughters ravaged and, as a consequence, those who barely survived the endorsed pillaging, generally starved to death.
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cryrst The garden of England 05 Apr 24 5.18pm | |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
Mate we’re not in a court of law - if you have a view or something to say, just say it - it’s a lot of telling people what they should and shouldn’t do when discussing this topic, without actually going into any detail. You say I shouldn’t generalise but frankly that is all you’re doing; making huge general statements about ‘conflicts’ without acknowledging any of the specifics of this conflict - if you want to provide context or nuance to go against my criticisms of Israel, by all means provide it, but don’t just vaguely hint that they exist. I agree it’s fair to criticise any country for multiple violations of international law or disregard for civilian protection, hence why I am criticising Israel.
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cryrst The garden of England 05 Apr 24 5.28pm | |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
To be clear, I am referring to the ideology of Hamas, not Islam as a whole. Where the west and how it acts is involved what is the difference in the ideology and beliefs. .
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Behind Enemy Lines Sussex 05 Apr 24 5.43pm | |
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Originally posted by silvertop
You might want to delve a little deeper into your history books. Try, for instance, looking at the Wiki pages on the 30 Year War. One positive policy introduced by Wellington was bring your own food. Looters and rapists from his own numbers were summarily executed. That was a revolutionary change. Prior to that, armies were fed on what they could plunder from the locality. This was policy ordered by the generals, not some indiscipline of ragged squaddies. Given the precarious, marginal existence at that time, this usually meant that anyone within a 20 mile radius of the battle or who were unlucky enough to live en route for the marching heroes, had all their meagre provisions taken, daughters ravaged and, as a consequence, those who barely survived the endorsed pillaging, generally starved to death. Thank you for the information. Unfortunately, that highlights that war has always concentrated some of its efforts against a civilian population; nothing changes so we shouldn’t be surprised at the Hamas attack or the Israeli response. Unsavoury as the civilian deaths are it appears that they will always be with us and no amount of marches and protests will change the present or the future.
hats off to palace, they were always gonna be louder, and hate to say it but they were impressive ALL bouncing and singing. |
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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 05 Apr 24 5.59pm | |
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Originally posted by cryrst
Even under the assumption that is true (which I think is unlikely given Israel’s record of telling the truth), they decided the appropriate response to that threat was to knowingly and deliberately kill numerous civilians and aid workers, including foreign nationals.
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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 05 Apr 24 6.03pm | |
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Originally posted by cryrst
Where the west and how it acts is involved what is the difference in the ideology and beliefs. . There is a huge difference between an ordinary follower of Islam, and someone radicalised to the point of committing acts of terror, obviously. In this context, the ideology of Hamas is obviously deeply anti-Semitic and violent, and as I said, the inevitable outcome of Israel’s current campaign is going to be another generation of Palestinians being radicalised.
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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 05 Apr 24 6.13pm | |
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Originally posted by Behind Enemy Lines
Thank you for the information. Unfortunately, that highlights that war has always concentrated some of its efforts against a civilian population; nothing changes so we shouldn’t be surprised at the Hamas attack or the Israeli response. Unsavoury as the civilian deaths are it appears that they will always be with us and no amount of marches and protests will change the present or the future. I don’t agree at all - a couple of hours ago I gave you an example of a long modern campaign where civilians casualties were not in the same stratosphere. The Troubles dragged on for many years and as brutal as that was civilian deaths were a few thousand, from memory. I think using a war from 500 years ago as a barometer for modern human morality is unreliable - there are countless examples of things which were morally acceptable then which nearly everyone would now agree are wrong. That’s without mentioning the tremendous progress in military capability and international diplomatic agreements. I’m also just not comfortable with just resigning ourselves to the ongoing massacre of children as if it’s an inevitability - particularly when there are clear diplomatic and economic pressures which can be applied to achieve the opposite.
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