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Post EU World

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Teddy Eagle Flag 20 Feb 23 10.55pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

It is one of the EFTA countries. It ‘felt the need’ to be inside the fly sheet if not the tent. It benefits from centuries of preparation and an unique geography. Norway is another. It benefited hugely from North Sea non-renewables and invested that wisely so for now can function a little differently. On the other hand it is the uk that wears a urinary drainage bag and, latterly, a colostomy bag too.

Still doesn't explain why they wouldn't be better off in the EU like everyone else.

 

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Teddy Eagle Flag 20 Feb 23 10.57pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

They already have a special relationship which gives them all they want. With their unique status, which is not something I find particularly comfortable, I can understand why they don't want any more.

And the Swiss value their democracy and don't want to compromise it.

 

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Mapletree Flag Croydon 20 Feb 23 11.27pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

Still doesn't explain why they wouldn't be better off in the EU like everyone else.

Like I said. It created an unique position for itself and has particular lines of trade embedded over centuries. It is a trusted broker. Perhaps you can see why the UK, or at least England, could never aspire to that status.

 

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Teddy Eagle Flag 20 Feb 23 11.31pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

Like I said. It created an unique position for itself and has particular lines of trade embedded over centuries. It is a trusted broker. Perhaps you can see why the UK, or at least England, could never aspire to that status.

Yes but Switzerland is largely run on referenda and the voters didn't and don't want to join the EU. They're not all bankers and brokers.

 

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PalazioVecchio Flag south pole 21 Feb 23 12.13am Send a Private Message to PalazioVecchio Add PalazioVecchio as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

Yes but Switzerland is largely run on referenda and the voters didn't and don't want to join the EU. They're not all bankers and brokers.

the so-called 'grooming gangs' would never have happened in Switzerland....not on that industrial scale

 


Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford

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Badger11 Flag Beckenham 21 Feb 23 8.12am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

This argument is going nowhere as usual


My view is that if you believe democracy is about directly electing the people who make the decisions then you probably are not pro EU.

If you believe that democracy is about electing people who then appoint others to make decisions then I guess you would be pro EU.

 


One more point

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PalazioVecchio Flag south pole 21 Feb 23 8.35am Send a Private Message to PalazioVecchio Add PalazioVecchio as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

This argument is going nowhere as usual


My view is that if you believe democracy is about directly electing the people who make the decisions then you probably are not pro EU.

If you believe that democracy is about electing people who then appoint others to make decisions then I guess you would be pro EU.

and if you believe that there are no real choices on the Electoral Polling card ? 1970s Soviet Union or Current day Ireland ?

The entire establishment was against Brexit....the media, very many tory politicians (including the then PM), every other Elite....and then Joe Public gave them a surprise

The absence of democracy and real public accountability in the EU will be the end of the whole failed experiment. The finances of the EU are somewhere between a sick running-joke and a WarCrime

Edited by PalazioVecchio (21 Feb 2023 9.12am)

 


Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards georgenorman Flag 21 Feb 23 9.08am Send a Private Message to georgenorman Add georgenorman as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Although you refuse to see why, the EU is run democratically. Just not a style of democracy you approve of.

The key point to remember is the principal of subsidiarity. EU member countries only delegate, via the treaties, specific areas of responsibility that are more efficiently done together. Members continue to retain full control over all the most important issues, including finance, budgets, taxation, foreign policy etc.

What those who are strongly opposed to the EU fail to understand is that the UK is a member of several organisations to whom we delegate responsibilities, like Nato, the WHO, the UN and even the WTO. So why get so irate about the EU? Of course, it's close to home and gets involved in things that touch people more directly, but is it really so different? Members agree to delegate. No-one dictates anything.

Edited by Wisbech Eagle (20 Feb 2023 10.54pm)

Dictionaries give a definition of democracy in a similar way along these lines: "a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system."
The MEPs that EU citizens elect have no power to make laws. They can vote against accepting laws made by unelected commissioners, but in budgetary and foreign policy matters they cannot even do that. When EU citizens decide who to vote for, they could read about the candidates’ policies and the manifestos of their parties, but it would be a complete waste of time as the MEPs have no means whatsoever of implementing those policies.
You say it is a style of democracy that I do not approve of. It is not a style of democracy, it is not democracy at all.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards georgenorman Flag 21 Feb 23 9.13am Send a Private Message to georgenorman Add georgenorman as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

It is one of the EFTA countries. It ‘felt the need’ to be inside the fly sheet if not the tent. It benefits from centuries of preparation and an unique geography. Norway is another. It benefited hugely from North Sea non-renewables and invested that wisely so for now can function a little differently. On the other hand it is the uk that wears a urinary drainage bag and, latterly, a colostomy bag too.

Yet thousands of people pay large sums of money and risk their lives in dingies to get to this country. You would think people would be fleeing to the EU if the UK is as you say it is.
It is like the left in the 50s and 60s praising East Germany where they had to build walls to stop people fleeing from that Utopia.

 

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Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 21 Feb 23 9.30am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

And the Swiss value their democracy and don't want to compromise it.

I doubt whether that's really true. I suspect the real reason is they like the wealth that their status provides and the lifestyle that arrives with it. That status has little to do with a particular type of democracy and more to do with a reputation as a safe haven for wealth.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Teddy Eagle Flag 21 Feb 23 9.46am Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I doubt whether that's really true. I suspect the real reason is they like the wealth that their status provides and the lifestyle that arrives with it. That status has little to do with a particular type of democracy and more to do with a reputation as a safe haven for wealth.

Switzerland is a direct democracy and its citizens want to keep that system.

 

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Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 21 Feb 23 9.48am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by georgenorman

Dictionaries give a definition of democracy in a similar way along these lines: "a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system."
The MEPs that EU citizens elect have no power to make laws. They can vote against accepting laws made by unelected commissioners, but in budgetary and foreign policy matters they cannot even do that. When EU citizens decide who to vote for, they could read about the candidates’ policies and the manifestos of their parties, but it would be a complete waste of time as the MEPs have no means whatsoever of implementing those policies.
You say it is a style of democracy that I do not approve of. It is not a style of democracy, it is not democracy at all.

That is exactly what we have now and also had when in the EU. We elect representatives. They form governments. Governments decide, on our behalf, to take actions. Actions that include signing treaties and delegating some responsibilities. The ultimate power always rests with us. Brexit proved that.

You are fixated on the role of MEPs and the European Parliament but fail to recognise these do not, and were never intended to, provide the kind of direct representation found in national parliaments. The role of a MEP is different. They oversee the legislative process. They ensure each country's national interests are raised in debates. They liaise with both the Commission and Ministries at home to try to iron out potential difficulties.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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