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Son racist gesture
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 Stirlingsays  12 May 23 1.44pm |
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This is the problem with social liberals and the left in general, which we all know is now the establishment. They convince themselves of ideological positions and then create rules and laws that mean that the response to them being challenged or broken is punishment. The more these positions rub against human nature the more authoritarian the response becomes. Which is the slippery slope I spoke about earlier. There will always be an activist or supporter class who will defend that. Personally I'm not a social liberal, because as I've stated in the past I don't hold positions that are proven to worsen social metrics and utilitarian outcomes for ideological purity and virtue points. In fact I don't consider these positions as virtuous at all. This situation is a case in point. Because of these stated positions this guy, who has been a berk here, has been dealt with in an over the top manner. Still there are a lot of people agreeing with that treatment. Some bloke being silly in the football stands is treated as important while actual violence, sometimes life harming, goes on around stadiums every match and is rarely bothered about. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 May 2023 1.44pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Painter Croydon 12 May 23 1.45pm |
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Originally posted by Eaglecoops
To put it all in perspective there is a video doing the rounds of an away supporter having the crap kicked out of him because he was in the wrong end at Newcastle. Not one Newcastle fan was arrested. So violence is considered acceptable, whereas pulling faces is not. The people throwing the punches were easily identifiable by the way. Reminds me of the chances of getting a police officer around your house whilst there is a burglary in progress compared to reporting a racist incident. I know which one the Police appear at first. Comical. I agree, the whole incident has been blown out of all proportion. I expect the man in question had had a few beers before the game and acted out of character in the crowd environment. Football violence is creeping back into grounds and as the saying goes “stick and stones etc “
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| Stirlingsays 12 May 23 1.56pm |
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Originally posted by Nicholas91
Have to say I agree there and did very poorly attempt to articulate something along similar lines which then felt as though the boxing of an individual (me) into a presumptive category came into play. That’s just how it felt for clarity not saying that’s an accurate interpretation of what happened. My beef always lies with this being thematic in any discussion with ‘race’ being one of the most volatile subject areas and therefore any commentary on such things either launches you to one end of the spectrum or the other. You’re either John Lennon singing ‘Imagine’ or Hitler at Nuremberg. Two things really have to come into play here and treated as separate in my opinion: 1. The act - It does fall within the category of ‘racist’ and therefore worthy of punishment or at the very least condemnation - don’t do that, you can’t do that, most of us don’t want to see that, it tarnished us as a fan base and club, it won’t be tolerated and you will be punished. 2. The individual - All that is known is that they committed the act. It seems as though you either advocate for their public hanging or deserve one yourself for defending them against such an outcome. I typically believe those accusing others of being at an extreme end of the spectrum with little to no evidence often do so as they are at the other. The punishment should not be extreme IMHO though others may disagree but that is still only for the act. You can’t further punish someone on the assumption it stands alone as evidence of something or anything more. Someone doing something dishonest like jumping a train a few stops, perhaps late at night when barriers are inactive, is not indicative of that person running a multimillion pound Ponzi scheme scam, as an example. My money is on this fella not being the brightest spark, very far from it, or he has reduced himself to that position via alcohol consumption. Could always be something else at play or very possibly a ‘moment of madness’ which any human being is vulnerable to. Punishing him proportionally, for the act, should be the right course of action however anything extreme varying from no repercussion at all to further punishment of a speculated and unevidenced (beyond one act, which isn’t enough) persona, which could have a devastating impact upon him, to serve ideology, is not appropriate for me. Where I get wound up is when it seems as though the likes of the media, or anyone else for that matter, jump upon and hijack these things to further their own agenda(s). I agree, the guy did something silly and this must be pretty embarrassing for him but we are also living in an age where disproportionate reactions to small infringements are increasingly supported. It's all in support of a highly funded 'racism' industry which is permanently on the hunt for transgressors to demonise to support its obsessional victimhood narrative.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| footythoughts Beckenham 12 May 23 1.56pm |
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Originally posted by Eaglecoops
To put it all in perspective there is a video doing the rounds of an away supporter having the crap kicked out of him because he was in the wrong end at Newcastle. Not one Newcastle fan was arrested. So violence is considered acceptable, whereas pulling faces is not. The people throwing the punches were easily identifiable by the way. Reminds me of the chances of getting a police officer around your house whilst there is a burglary in progress compared to reporting a racist incident. I know which one the Police appear at first. Comical. The incident you mention happened very recently and has been featured on national newspaper sites like The Sun [Link] so is hardly going under the radar. Who thinks that anyone getting the crap kicked out of them is 'acceptable'? With any group violent incident who was involved and what happened needs to be ascertainedd which is exactly what's happening here with the club and Northumbria Police as the force confirm. Where there is evidence of one sided violent crime taking place and those committing these crimes can be identified there is likely to be consequence to that as well there should be.
Edited by footythoughts (12 May 2023 2.01pm)
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| Eaglecoops CR3 12 May 23 1.57pm |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
So accusing me of being presumptuous then immediately being presumptuous? Yes I'm being presumptuous, but explaining why. It's not a knee-jerk reaction. It's a calculated assessment that I feel confident enough about to back in a debate. Besides, I'd argue that your judgement is clouded by what appears to be some sort of personal connection, which brings emotion into it. 'Moral superiority' – so you're having a go here and calling me superior because I'm heavily criticising someone for demonstrably behaving in an immoral and racist manner (according to what I'd suggest is a generally accepted moral standard/judgement over what is racist in this country) then laying into someone (you) that's emotionally invested and appears to be trying to downplay the incident, or make excuses for it. I mean... Also, your 'different people have different morals' half point... what are you saying here exactly? We should all be tolerant and open to everyones different interpretations of morality and the outcomes of such differences without criticising? Everybody's free to act however they want because everyone is entitled to different morals without judgement or critique? Because that sounds very left wing to me. Comes across as though you're saying what is an observably racist action should be tolerable because 'different morals for different people'. Which is odd This action isn't some sort of grey area up for debate – it's a racist gesture. Whether that means the person is a hardcore racist or is just comfortable enough with that particular flavour of racism to actually perform it in a heavily monitored public arena, (not exactly a secret that football games have cameras, and that racism is a thing) is up for debate, but as above you've got to make a call and that's where probability comes in. Edited by SW19 CPFC (12 May 2023 12.30am) This is a powerful lesson… A high school class is learning about the Salem Witch Trials. Their teacher told them they were going to play a game. "I'm going to come around and whisper to each of you whether you're a witch or a regular person. Your goal is to build the largest group possible that does NOT have a witch in it. At the end, any group found to include a witch gets a failing grade." The teens dove into grilling each other. One fairly large group formed, but most of the students broke into small, exclusive groups, turning away anyone they thought gave off even a hint of guilt. "Okay," the teacher said. "You've got your groups. Time to find out which ones fail. All witches, please raise your hands." No one raised a hand. The kids were confused and told the teacher he'd messed up the game. "Did I?” He asked. “Was anyone in Salem an actual witch? Or did everyone just believe what they'd been told?" And that is how you show kids how easy it is to divide a Community. Shunning, scapegoating, placing blame and dividing will each destroy far more than they will protect. Don’t allow fear to cloud your decisions. Use your own discernment. Trust your heart…and your gut. The best teachers will show you where to look, but they won’t tell you what to see. ~Unknown This is how I see Britain bashing itself to pieces over racism at the moment. You see, I consider you to be one of the people who are more interested in trying to prove people are racist than trying to fix any issues. It’s almost a case of joyous indignation when you find something or someone you can get your teeth into. There is so much else wrong in this world that I really haven’t got the time or the energy to worry about the odd fella pulling faces but I’m not defending him and believe me neither is his father.
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| Eaglecoops CR3 12 May 23 2.04pm |
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Originally posted by footythoughts
The incident you mention happened very recently and has been featured on national newspaper sites like The Sun [Link] so is hardly going under the radar. Who thinks that anyone getting the crap kicked out of them is 'acceptable'? With any group violent incident who was involved and what happened needs to be ascertainedd which is exactly what's happening here with the club and Northumbria Police as the force confirm. Where there is evidence of one sided violent crime taking place and those committing these crimes can be identified there is likely to be consequence to that. The two events have little to do with each other. You're trying to leverage and use a person being assaulted to say that someone racially abusing a player doesn't deserve addressing. It's a non argument as neither are acceptable and the response to both indicates that. Edited by footythoughts (12 May 2023 1.58pm) Who said it was under the radar, certainly not me? You know exactly what I am saying. It is virtually guaranteed that nothing will happen to the Newcastle fans, whereas someone will probably try and destroy the Palace fan’s life over this. Anyone stopped to consider that the Palace fan might have mental issues? Would you change your attitude then?
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| footythoughts Beckenham 12 May 23 2.08pm |
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Originally posted by Eaglecoops
At least someone has a bit of sense then. Yes, generally speaking acting like a plonker and getting banned from going to matches for racist behaviour isn't something most would want attached to the family name. The guys hardly been strung up, it's just behaviour that's not welcome at the football ground. Personally I think the behaviour is disproportionate, but it's a situation of his own making so he should be adult enough to reflect on and not repeat it.
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| footythoughts Beckenham 12 May 23 2.19pm |
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Originally posted by Eaglecoops
Who said it was under the radar, certainly not me? You know exactly what I am saying. It is virtually guaranteed that nothing will happen to the Newcastle fans, whereas someone will probably try and destroy the Palace fan’s life over this. Anyone stopped to consider that the Palace fan might have mental issues? Would you change your attitude then? You implied that it's not been taken seriously, is deemed 'acceptable', and that no action will be taken. I'm saying that it's received national media attention, has not been deemed acceptable and is being investigated by the club and police with a view of taking action. "It is virtually guaranteed that nothing will happen to the Newcastle fans, whereas someone will probably try and destroy the Palace fan’s life over this. " It's not virtually guarenteed at all, and the idea that 'someone will probably try and destroy the Palace fan’s life over this' is massively OTT. He'll be watching games on telly for a while due to thinking the price of a ticket includes being racist to those he's going to see. It doesn't.
Certainly it would, though you're basically just throwing any get out going now. None of which seem to consider anyone aside from the individual engaging in this behaviour to begin with. Maybe he has tourettes too and it's one of his tics? Or maybe he doesn't.. We can only get so far fetched in excusing behaviour. Edited by footythoughts (12 May 2023 2.20pm)
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| Beanyboysmd 12 May 23 2.25pm |
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The English Premiership is arguably one of the most watched leagues in the world. The money made from international TV rights is now a majority of the Premierships income. We can try to crowbar "Nanny state" or "Thin end of the wedge" or whatever meaningless phrase into the conversation but it all boils down to one thing... The whole world is watching, can you not do your allegedly hilarious "Ching-chong Chinaman" routine in front of the rest of the world? You are making us look like t***s.
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| Eaglecoops CR3 12 May 23 2.27pm |
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Originally posted by footythoughts
You implied that it's not been taken seriously, is deemed 'acceptable', and that no action will be taken. I'm saying that it's received national media attention, has not been deemed acceptable and is being investigated by the club and police with a view of taking action. "It is virtually guaranteed that nothing will happen to the Newcastle fans, whereas someone will probably try and destroy the Palace fan’s life over this. " It's not virtually guarenteed at all, and the idea that 'someone will probably try and destroy the Palace fan’s life over this' is massively OTT. He'll be watching games on telly for a while due to thinking the price of a ticket includes being racist to those he's going to see. It doesn't.
Certainly it would, though you're basically just throwing any get out going now. None of which seem to consider anyone aside from the individual engaging in this behaviour to begin with. Maybe he has tourettes too and it's one of his tics? Or maybe he doesn't.. We can only get so far fetched in excusing behaviour. Edited by footythoughts (12 May 2023 2.20pm) I’m not excusing anyone’s behaviour I am saying how utterly irrelevant it is in the grand scheme of things and how much attention something like this gets compared to the violence, rape and murders that occur on a daily basis sometimes without a mention in the press. The world has become skewed in its priorities.
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| ambrose7 Croydon 12 May 23 2.34pm |
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Surprised this thread is so long. Guy makes a gesture that is clearly targeting Son for his race. Gets caught on camera. League has been very clear it'll be zero tolerance on racist gestures and racist gestures have led to bans for a long time now - there are plenty of examples. Club has publicly said they'll ban the guy. Any other outcome would be newsworthy - the above is exactly the expected result, isn't it? It can be cross compared to situation X or time Y or any number of things but none of it is really relevant - the league has been abundantly clear that it won't tolerate it and anyone that's got enough points to get a ticket to Tottenham away cannot possibly claim to not be aware of the league's expectations of behaviour relevant to racial gestures.
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| Stirlingsays 12 May 23 2.37pm |
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Originally posted by Eaglecoops
This is a powerful lesson… A high school class is learning about the Salem Witch Trials. Their teacher told them they were going to play a game. "I'm going to come around and whisper to each of you whether you're a witch or a regular person. Your goal is to build the largest group possible that does NOT have a witch in it. At the end, any group found to include a witch gets a failing grade." The teens dove into grilling each other. One fairly large group formed, but most of the students broke into small, exclusive groups, turning away anyone they thought gave off even a hint of guilt. "Okay," the teacher said. "You've got your groups. Time to find out which ones fail. All witches, please raise your hands." No one raised a hand. The kids were confused and told the teacher he'd messed up the game. "Did I?” He asked. “Was anyone in Salem an actual witch? Or did everyone just believe what they'd been told?" And that is how you show kids how easy it is to divide a Community. Shunning, scapegoating, placing blame and dividing will each destroy far more than they will protect. Don’t allow fear to cloud your decisions. Use your own discernment. Trust your heart…and your gut. The best teachers will show you where to look, but they won’t tell you what to see. ~Unknown This is how I see Britain bashing itself to pieces over racism at the moment. You see, I consider you to be one of the people who are more interested in trying to prove people are racist than trying to fix any issues. It’s almost a case of joyous indignation when you find something or someone you can get your teeth into. There is so much else wrong in this world that I really haven’t got the time or the energy to worry about the odd fella pulling faces but I’m not defending him and believe me neither is his father. It's notable that it wasn't until the accusations started against the powerful that the Salem witch trials came to a rapid end. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 May 2023 2.37pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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