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Confederate Statues
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 Stirlingsays  19 Aug 17 12.41pm |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
I don't this.k they're tearing down the statue, just moving it. More over emotional claptrap from those barely concealing their support for right wing extremists. How dare you suggest I support right wing extremists. I don't support any idiot who bases their politics on skin colour and you should know that. Left wing extremists have already torn down a statue and those same people would most definitely do the same here. It's idiotic to suggest otherwise. No one is referring to the council.....they are elected and they answer to their voters. If removing is what they want then I have no issue with that. Edited by Stirlingsays (19 Aug 2017 12.42pm)
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| Mapletree Croydon 19 Aug 17 12.53pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
And you were moaning about bad comparisons. You don't deal with the flaws I've pointed out. You have no issues with the tearing down of the Lee statue but apparently you ignore the problems inherent with that which I've pointed out.....Not surprising. The pyramid point and slippery slope position pretty much wreck the arguments you made. I've noticed you doing that in another thread. If you were playing chess you'd resign but with online debate you can just ignore the problems with your argument when they are pointed out....oh well. Germany would like you because they ban certain things as well, but even they have monuments to German generals such as Rommel....that's far closer to this situation than your swastikas. Edited by Stirlingsays (19 Aug 2017 12.41am) Au contraire, you are not dealing well with my points. Point 1 - It appears you agree that certain iconography cannot be allowed to remain in place. Either because it continues to create serious upset to people and/or it creates a rallying point for loons Point 2 - the statues were put up as a direct provocation and were aimed at demeaning a specific group Point 3 - there is no comparison with people who at some point may have said bad things. This is direct not indirect nastiness, it was aimed with a razor sharp edge at causing pain Point 4 - I am getting seriously worried about the way groups of Pharaohs keep hanging around Egypt chanting and hogging all the ferries to the underworld Edited by Mapletree (19 Aug 2017 12.53pm)
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| Stirlingsays 19 Aug 17 1.19pm |
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Originally posted by Mapletree
Au contraire, you are not dealing well with my points. Point 1 - It appears you agree that certain iconography cannot be allowed to remain in place. Either because it continues to create serious upset to people and/or it creates a rallying point for loons Obviously it depends upon what we are talking about and what the arguments for and against are. When you say I agree...what are you referring to swastikas?....Outside of an museum I don't regard the argument for displaying them as very strong. Originally posted by Mapletree
Point 2 - the statues were put up as a direct provocation and were aimed at demeaning a specific group I think this is the main point of difference between us. You want to frame these things in the way you want which ignores other interpretations. Sure that's how you and some view them. I say that is only a part of the story. Besides that, I'm a democrat. If the local population want to remove them then I don't think it's a good idea but I agree with democratic principle. Originally posted by Mapletree
I'm not sure what you are referring to...This is no doubt a failure on my part. I should go back and look...but I'm a lazy arse today so forgive me. Originally posted by Mapletree
Point 4 - I am getting seriously worried about the way groups of Pharaohs keep hanging around Egypt chanting and hogging all the ferries to the underworld I agree that it is a problem that the far right also agree with keeping the statues. Their reasons don't align with mine. It's much in the same way that communists also agree with the principle of free healthcare at the point of delivery.....I am of course assuming that you aren't a communist. My point though about symbols of oppression being everywhere is valid. People could do this stuff with almost everything....lets tear down Bristol and Liverpool! All the nice parts were built on slave money.
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 Hrolf The Ganger 19 Aug 17 2.40pm |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
I don't this.k they're tearing down the statue, just moving it. More over emotional claptrap from those barely concealing their support for right wing extremists. Ha ha. 'I see racists everywhere' How about if we move all the statues two feet to the left. That would be a proportionate political tokenism. Maybe another inch or two could be negotiated for a couple of confederate flags.
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| Mapletree Croydon 19 Aug 17 2.47pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I agree that it is a problem that the far right also agree with keeping the statues. Their reasons don't align with mine. It's much in the same way that communists also agree with the principle of free healthcare at the point of delivery.....I am of course assuming that you aren't a communist. My point though about symbols of oppression being everywhere is valid. People could do this stuff with almost everything....lets tear down Bristol and Liverpool! All the nice parts were built on slave money. And my point is they were put up AS symbols of oppression, they didn't BECOME them. Look up when they were built and by whom.
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| Hrolf The Ganger 19 Aug 17 3.57pm |
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Originally posted by Mapletree
And my point is they were put up AS symbols of oppression, they didn't BECOME them. Look up when they were built and by whom. Who gives a f*** for f*** sake. Can you not see how pathetic this all is? This is one group of f***wits trying to get top trumps over another. It has nothing to do with the real world.
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| Stirlingsays 19 Aug 17 4.32pm |
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Originally posted by Mapletree
And my point is they were put up AS symbols of oppression, they didn't BECOME them. Look up when they were built and by whom. And my point is so were the pyramids. This point has been answered...why continually make it? What people see in them now is what people see in them now.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Mapletree Croydon 19 Aug 17 4.59pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
And my point is so were the pyramids. This point has been answered...why continually make it? What people see in them now is what people see in them now. Because it's relevant today, right now. The original logic is still holding true in this case. Why continually imply it's not important and 'the point has been answered'? Clearly it is currently important to both sides. The point won't be answered until the statues become irrelevant as matters have moved on. This is what the Mayor of Charlottesville said: "All of a sudden these statues of Civil War generals installed in the Jim Crow era, they became touchstones of terror," he continued, "the twisted totems that people are clearly drawn to, trying to create a whole architecture of intimidation and hatred around them that was visited around our town. It was evil." In theory the Pyramids were built solely to protect the body of the God Kings. They may have developed other connotations. Edited by Mapletree (19 Aug 2017 5.05pm)
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 19 Aug 17 5.05pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Who gives a f*** for f*** sake. Can you not see how pathetic this all is? This is one group of f***wits trying to get top trumps over another. It has nothing to do with the real world. No this is about nazis marching in the streets of America in 2017 and blame being deflected on people who happen to think the ideology of white supremacists is a bit iffy.
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| Hrolf The Ganger 19 Aug 17 5.32pm |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
No this is about nazis marching in the streets of America in 2017 and blame being deflected on people who happen to think the ideology of white supremacists is a bit iffy. No. This is about people making a stupid and entirely self-serving political decision to remove some statues that a noisy minority of microbe brained people are wetting their knickers about. It's hard to believe how dumb and short sighted some people are.
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| Stirlingsays 19 Aug 17 5.36pm |
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Originally posted by Mapletree
Because it's relevant today, right now. The original logic is still holding true in this case. Why continually imply it's not important and 'the point has been answered'? Clearly it is currently important to both sides. The point won't be answered until the statues become irrelevant as matters have moved on. This is what the Mayor of Charlottesville said: "All of a sudden these statues of Civil War generals installed in the Jim Crow era, they became touchstones of terror," he continued, "the twisted totems that people are clearly drawn to, trying to create a whole architecture of intimidation and hatred around them that was visited around our town. It was evil." In theory the Pyramids were built solely to protect the body of the God Kings. They may have developed other connotations. Edited by Mapletree (19 Aug 2017 5.05pm)
You don't get to tell me what a statue means or tell me what its function was. I know the history of the civil war, I get to come to my own conclusion and I don't fully agree with your interpretation. You get to tell me what it means to you. The local population get to decide what happens to infrastructure that affects them around them. That's how it should be. We think the pyramids were built in alignment with their religion. The point is however that they were were very much a symbol of oppression and built by slaves in a society that didn't value their lives. People in Egypt right now view them positively for many reasons and that is their right. There may come a time when they don't and if democracy gets to mean anything that is also their right. Your position has its right of airing in the marketplace of ideas. I don't buy it though.
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| Stirlingsays 19 Aug 17 5.49pm |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
No this is about nazis marching in the streets of America in 2017 and blame being deflected on people who happen to think the ideology of white supremacists is a bit iffy. All those people are doing is swelling the ranks of the far right. Organisations whose numbers were minimal before the progressives and their identity politics. Now they are just getting larger and larger. Anyone who knows about how Hitler actually came to power know that bar-room fights and brawls with opponents was how their their numbers grew....you think Hitler wasn't opposed? There are statistics for far right and communist deaths in conflict for the years leading up to 1932...they don't fear getting punched...they actually want you to come at them. They need physical resistance to grow because it gets them the publicity.
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