This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.
Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?
Register | Edit Profile | Subscriptions | Forum Rules | Log In
BlueJay  UK 06 Apr 22 3.31pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Here is an image showing a more realistic picture of where the world is in regards to this war. And because some countries lean towards supporting Russia's invasion, rather than oppose it, that means...? In certain situations people will unfortunately support barbaric acts. That doesn't change the nature of said acts and if this was happening where you live, I doubt you'd be saying "but China think its okay!" as the tanks approached. It's perfectly possible to say that a peaceful solution should be sought, without acting like Putin isn't the primary reason that innocents are being killed and a country invaded. The West has been positively restrainted in its response, and Putin behaves in barbaric ways while whining and finger pointing in every which way. if he eants peace then he had better meet us half way on the front. Dropping bombs on innocents may not get us there any sooner.
|
|
 Alert a moderator to this post |
 |
 PalazioVecchio  south pole 06 Apr 22 3.42pm |
  |
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by BlueJay
And because some countries lean towards supporting Russia's invasion, rather than oppose it, that means...? In certain situations people will unfortunately support barbaric acts. That doesn't change the nature of said acts and if this was happening where you live, I doubt you'd be saying "but China think its okay!" as the tanks approached. It's perfectly possible to say that a peaceful solution should be sought, without acting like Putin isn't the primary reason that innocents are being killed and a country invaded. The West has been positively restrainted in its response, and Putin behaves in barbaric ways while whining and finger pointing in every which way. if he eants peace then he had better meet us half way on the front. Dropping bombs on innocents may not get us there any sooner. i cannot recall your opinions on the invasions of Iraq or Afghanistan ? do you also condemn those, unreservedly ?
Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
 |
| BlueJay UK 06 Apr 22 3.55pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by PalazioVecchio
i cannot recall your opinions on the invasions of Iraq or Afghanistan ? do you also condemn those, unreservedly ? Most certainly on both counts. The one saving grace of them is that most are now averse to such actions. Theres always so many vested interests behind the scenes and the military used as pawns, their allegiance abused to the benefit of others bank balance.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
Stirlingsays  06 Apr 22 3.58pm |
 |
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by BlueJay
And because some countries lean towards supporting Russia's invasion, rather than oppose it, that means...? The purpose of the image was to provide a perhaps more accurate panorama of global perspectives. If you just take in our own media, then I'm not sure you'd realise that it's a world divided. It has no purpose other than that. Originally posted by BlueJay
In certain situations people will unfortunately support barbaric acts. That doesn't change the nature of said acts and if this was happening where you live, I doubt you'd be saying "but China think its okay!" as the tanks approached. Again, you are reducing this down to the moral. On that level I agree, as I've said multiple times I can't criticise any man for taking up arms against an invader. I realise the brutalising affect of war, however butchering prisoners gets no quarter from me regardless of who does it and both sides have. As for the world in general, I think most countries just naturally act in their own interests. I very much think that is how we should act as well, instead of the rather toothless Captain Mannering impressions thus far. Originally posted by BlueJay
It's perfectly possible to say that a peaceful solution should be sought, without acting like Putin isn't the primary reason that innocents are being killed and a country invaded. The West has been positively restrainted in its response, and Putin behaves in barbaric ways while whining and finger pointing in every which way. if he eants peace then he had better meet us half way on the front. Dropping bombs on innocents may not get us there any sooner. I'm just repeating myself when I say that Russia are to blame for starting the war. How we got here is another topic and was discussed earlier in the thread. What matters isn't the moralising between barbaric acts to which we have no control but rather what position the actions of our politicans have put this country into. If our economic Covid responses and now this cold war means that most vulnerable people go cold and hungry in winter....Then I'm not going to clap my hands in support to high minded morals. My first concern is to my own....people can't eat ideas. I hear that 20 percent of Americans run out of cash before their next pay cheque....with inflation that's going to worsen. I don't support chess moves that can't think more than one move ahead. So we both agree that a peace deal really needs to happen fast. Then, a major diplomatic repair job. Do I think that's going to happen? No....I think the Democrats and Europe are more interested in a war of attrition. I hope I'm wrong on that. Unless Zelensky sorts something out he's going to throw away a lot of good men's lives in the Donbas.
Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Apr 2022 4.00pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| BlueJay UK 06 Apr 22 4.12pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I'm quite happy calling you a fag and a degenerate if it equals it up for you. I'll say what I like about who I like. This forum isn't a playground wall for people to scrawl anti gay or racial slurs and the like. My partner was last year on the receiving end of a 'monkey' and n word slur (during a pub quiz bizarrely - related to one of your fellow inadequates 'clever' answers to a 'animal' based question). So I've had experience with 'say what I want' types. This isn't a far right group that hosts and five highs the unimaginable, it's an open community site for fans. They shouldn't have to contend with your demographic dislikes and slurs as a price of posting. Offer a basic standard. Quote
To say I have 'sugarcoated' Russia's conduct, which I have criticised, is just more emotive and inaccurate comment. Many of your contributions (even today) on here with regard to Ukraine have been a 'no, look over there' with a mantra of how corrupt they are, and how they've committed atrocities too etc. Criticism of Russia has largely been briefly tagged on to avoid such criticisms. Your self declaration of what your behaviour is, is neither here nor there. You're hardly one to offer an accurate appraisal of yourself, hence why you conduct yourself as you do.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| BlueJay UK 06 Apr 22 4.18pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Unless Zelensky sorts something out he's going to throw away a lot of good men's lives in the Donbas.
Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Apr 2022 4.00pm) Ultimately, it's still part of Ukraine, and they have a right to defend it, and so again saying that 'he's throwing lives away is a rather skewed take. There are clear pros and cons to either trying to defend it or to effectively hand it over. The latter, while certainly understandable if it does happen, offers a dangerous precedent that the culling of innocents will be rewarded now and in future. There are no easy answers, no firm rights or wrongs on the specifics as there are so many factors at play. We can but watch.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| Stirlingsays 06 Apr 22 4.19pm |
|
|---|---|
|
One interesting thing I've learnt during this is just how the word 'Nazi' is viewed in the Ukraine/Russia and eastern Europe generally. I think initially many people were confused how Zelensky could accept the Azov Battalion, with its neo Nazi culture, into his army when he's Jewish and all the rest of it. I've since learnt that what Nazi means in the west is something different to what it means further east. If you think of Nazis here you're trained to think of the holocaust and six million Jews. However, if you are a Russian you hear Nazi and you think of twenty seven million Russian dead. So from what I've been told essentially a neo Nazi in the Ukraine has a hatred for Russians carried over from the soviet occupation more than any Jewish aspect and it's that zealotry and commitment to fighting them that Zelensky accepts.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| Stirlingsays 06 Apr 22 4.30pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by BlueJay
Ultimately, it's still part of Ukraine, and they have a right to defend it, and so again saying that 'he's throwing lives away is a rather skewed take. There are clear pros and cons to either trying to defend it or to effectively hand it over. The latter, while certainly understandable if it does happen, offers a dangerous precedent that the culling of innocents will be rewarded now and in future. There are no easy answers, no firm rights or wrongs on the specifics as there are so many factors at play. We can but watch. I would like you to be right on this but my analysis is that the Donbas can't be successfully defended without air support and fuel for Ukrainian forces to actually get down there....the Russians having destroyed most fuel bases in the north. The Ukrainians are outgunned, out fuelled and out numbered down there...Russia doesn't have the logistics problem it had in the north and I don't see how it can defend it. As a sentiment though I agree with you, but it seems like throwing men away on land the Russians will take regardless. I think that unless a peace deal is reached we could see the Russians creating their own annexed border....then you get the shelling and low level war until a proper peace....which could be extended out until the politicians accept the unpleasant reality of it.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| The groover Danbury 06 Apr 22 4.35pm |
|
|---|---|
|
The Azov battalion consists of 2500 troops. Hardly a huge "Nazi" contingent. The situation in terms of an escalation has been made far worse by the russian's murdering civilians. Why would a Ukrainian surrender knowing they will be shot anyway. They will now fight to the death. Putin has conscripted over 100,000 and is sending them to east Ukraine. They will not be ready for this War and 10's of thousands will die.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| BlueJay UK 06 Apr 22 4.37pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I would like you to be right on this but my analysis is that the Donbas can't be successfully defended without air support and fuel for Ukrainian forces to actually get down there....the Russians having destroyed most fuel bases in the north. The Ukrainians are outgunned, out fuelled and out numbered down there...Russia doesn't have the logistics problem it had in the north and I don't see how it can defend it. As a sentiment though I agree with you, but it seems like throwing men away on land the Russians will take regardless. I think that unless a peace deal is reached we could see the Russians creating their own annexed border....then you get the shelling and low level war until a proper peace....which could be extended out until the politicians accept the unpleasant reality of it. You may well be right, in that in terms of it's proximity Russia can throw everything at it. It could depend on how much military equipment the West provides, and all end up being a bargaining chip from both perspectives. From a Ukranian pov there may be a feeling that if it isn't defended then other regions will gradually go the same way. Who knows.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| PalazioVecchio south pole 06 Apr 22 4.38pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Stirlingsays
One interesting thing I've learnt during this is just how the word 'Nazi' is viewed in the Ukraine/Russia and eastern Europe generally. I think initially many people were confused how Zelensky could accept the Azov Battalion, with its neo Nazi culture, into his army when he's Jewish and all the rest of it. I've since learnt that what Nazi means in the west is something different to what it means further east. If you think of Nazis here you're trained to think of the holocaust and six million Jews. However, if you are a Russian you hear Nazi and you think of twenty seven million Russian dead. So from what I've been told essentially a neo Nazi in the Ukraine has a hatred for Russians carried over from the soviet occupation more than any Jewish aspect and it's that zealotry and commitment to fighting them that Zelensky accepts. correct. And the Soviets did brutalize Eastern Europe from 1945 to 1990.
Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| Stirlingsays 06 Apr 22 4.57pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by BlueJay
This forum isn't a playground wall for people to scrawl anti gay or racial slurs and the like. My partner was last year on the receiving end of a 'monkey' and n word slur (during a pub quiz bizarrely - related to one of your fellow inadequates 'clever' answers to a 'animal' based question). So I've had experience with 'say what I want' types. This isn't a far right group that hosts and five highs the unimaginable, it's an open community site for fans. They shouldn't have to contend with your demographic dislikes and slurs as a price of posting. Offer a basic standard. This isn't a forum for people like you to decide what words can and can't be used. You don't get to narrow the lexicon because you consider certain words 'hurty'. When I joke I might offend some people. Anyone can claim or be actually offended by anything. I don't accept nor agree with your desire to censor people to the extent that some list of non swear words are banned....if people decide to self censor that's something else. Originally posted by BlueJay
Many of your contributions (even today) on here with regard to Ukraine have been a 'no, look over there' with a mantra of how corrupt they are, and how they've committed atrocities too etc. Criticism of Russia has largely been briefly tagged on to avoid such criticisms. Your self declaration of what your behaviour is, is neither here nor there. You're hardly one to offer an accurate appraisal of yourself, hence why you conduct yourself as you do. Apparently saying what is true is some kind of diversionary tactic to what I really think. I don't think anyone objective who's read my posts over the years would really think that. Your opinion of me is roughly as low as my opinion of your politics, what its implications have been and the damage it continues to unlease. As for you, I regard you as bright, if misguided and emotionally thin skinned. You have that capacity for ideological hatred that I've never quite felt as for me it's a discussion of outcomes. Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Apr 2022 5.00pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
Login / RegisterNew users
Registration is now on our new message board
Existing users
To login with your existing username you will need to convert your account over to the new message board.
Sponsors
All images and text on this site are copyright © 1999-2024 The Holmesdale Online, unless otherwise stated.
Web Design by Guntrisoft Ltd.